Bad taste in Coaching?

[big poppa]

I have seen some strange things done by coaches during touraments but this one takes the cake. Last weekend during a bout in the J O Quialifers. My fencer was in a foil bout when the other' fencer's coach came up behind my fencer and started to say " finish Him' Then he started to say " he's nothing ' he's a loser anyway" At this point my fencer asked teh director to talk to the coach. The director said he didn't hear it. Afert the bout my fencer wanted to "discuss" with the outer coach what his problem might be. A parent present complained to me that this behavior was innaprorate from an adult to a teenager. I agreed with her and told my fencers if this ever happens again stop the bout and get me. Am I over reacting? I can understand giving a fencer directions , cheering him on but when does it become harassment?

[sabreur]

I would say it is gamesmanship of the worst sort. I have been known to encourage my fencers during a bout by saying, "Attack, damn it!" or something of that nature, but this evil guy from the Karate Kid kind of behavior is way beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned. It also would be less than worthless against any decent fencer, I would think, but then, I don't deal so much with adolescents.

Does the coach in question produce decent fencers?

MR

[wflaschka]

The other coach's behavior was indeed offensive. Once, while I was directing, a sideline coach kept telling his fencer, "Bad call, don't let it worry you" -- but not often enough to tick me off. In my case, the unspoken rebuttal was, "Or, your opponent is doing something right. Deal with that." I was offended less for myself, and more for the other fencer, who was doing good work and wasn't being credited by the opponent's coach.

I remember from my youthful, immature days the urge to denigrate an opponent -- I still get it sometimes. I can master this urge... almost always... but certainly always in tournaments. I know where the words come from:

This behavior is a confession of weakness. It's the sort of venomous, defeated language you get from a school bully when you finally knock him down. Take it as a compliment, when you can. Fencers should receive this sort of stuff with cold, surgical analysis, as another hint the opponent is giving you.

Golubitsky once told Cliff Bayer: "You're fencing like a fool." Then Cliff beat him.

[Peach]

In an early WS World Cup, one of the women in my pool was having a tough day. Her coach told her (and it was loud and overheard), "Don't worry. Just take the next one out 5-0 and I'll tell you what to do after that."

I was the next one, and I beat her.

As a strategy, not only is it inappropriate, it's ineffective.

[big poppa]

The Coach is in his late 40's, as a rule most of his fencers are little threat to anyone in the division with more than year or two of experience.

[sabreur]

Originally posted by big poppa
The Coach is in his late 40's, as a rule most of his fencers are little threat to anyone in the division with more than year or two of experience.

Explains a lot. In that case, beating his fencers with a minimum of fuss is the best revenge.

MR

[Talyn]

I know of a really crappy coach that does that... but to the person he coaches - during the 3 minute break he completely tears his own student apart, I guess he's trying to be helpful.

Anyway - I thought you got black carded when coaches interfere with b outs and stuff.

[mifencer]

I heard that the Nothern Ohio Division bickering between clubs is almost legendary. That is a shame, especially for the kids and people who just want to enjoy the sport.

In the words of Rodney King: can't we all just get along?

[vegan]

Talyn,
Unfortunatly, this often does not interupt the bout- lots of coaches yell all sorts of things . . . however, it is in poor taste, and just stupid- his fencer gets no info on how to do better, and feels bad that he is less then nothing when he loses. Fencing this coaches students . . just beat them quickly and quietly and be done with it (and pray that the kids parents rip the coach after the bouts over!).
Cheers,
B.
Ps. sometimes it is useful to listen to the coach on the other side- its very nice when they give up the actions they want there fencer to do!!

[The0ne]

Coaches like that always get bad reputations, and are shunned by all fencers not from his/her club. We have some like that up here in the Northeast coughChrisPullocough

[Duelist71]

TheOne
I know Chris, don't fence for him and think he is a great guy. I have also seen him coach many times, including against me, and have never seen him exhibit the behavior mentioned above.
I think you should reconsider making derogatory coments about someone on a open forum. You did not need to mention his name. I also find it disturbing that you are ripping someone by name but you yourself remain hidden. I checked your profile for your name.

Michael Olson

[Agent_V]

Originally posted by The0ne
Coaches like that always get bad reputations, and are shunned by all fencers not from his/her club. We have some like that up here in the Northeast coughChrisPullocough

What the hell are you saying Isaiah? There sure were political disagreements between Chris and other coaches, especially ours, but he is a honorable guy, and would never sink to that level described. He has not only produced several very good fencers, but also some of the nicest people I have ever met on or off the strip, like Doug, Kira, Kerry, Kevin, Forest, and so on. Bad attitudes among fencers are all too often implanted by their coaches, and I'm happy to say that Chris has implanted some of the very best in his fencers. Even more admirably, he has always had a lot of respect for other fencers as well, there have been no few times when I won narrowly against Doug or some other of his fencers, sometimes even with a couple questionable calls gone my way, and he [Chris] has still come up to me after the bout and shaken my hand, saying good fencing, without an ounce of insincerity.

If a bad instance like the one above has happened since I left the NE, I would of course be interested to know, but very shocked as well. Email me about it if you have one in mind.

-Alexander

[MyraTrue]

When I fenced with Purdue, there was one university (who shall go unnamed) who had a coach very like that. We all hated him, and my impression was his fencers didn't even like him. I liked most of the fencers...

My first time ever fencing foil, even before I was on the strip (team event) he starts yelling at his women, "she's crap, you can beat her. She's nothing! She isn't worth your time, just finish her and have done with it!" and so on. And for me, I was just in shock with my 6 weeks fencing experience that a coach would be yelling this. He'd yell it about all 3 of the womens team, who I can't say deserved it. Maybe I did, as the alternate. *Shrug* But I dislike it. (and I THINK we might have beaten them as well, which makes me feel good!)

He treated his fencers terribly. Tore them down instead of helping them. Maybe he was good when it came to lessons, but as a strip side coach, I wish he'd just up and vanish. It was humiliating to fence (when you fenced against his fencers), and painful to see him treat his OWN fencers like that too.

This is NOT appropriate, and will never be.

[Wizardly]

Originally posted by wflaschka
The other coach's behavior was indeed offensive. Once, while I was directing, a sideline coach kept telling his fencer, "Bad call, don't let it worry you" -- but not often enough to tick me off. In my case, the unspoken rebuttal was, "Or, your opponent is doing something right. Deal with that." I was offended less for myself, and more for the other fencer, who was doing good work and wasn't being credited by the opponent's coach.

Exactly what is permissable for the referee if he/she hears this kind of comment? I hear this kind of BS now an then ... the "I wish I were directing this one and I'd show him some black" reaction kicks in. Too strong a response?

In general, bad call by the coach. Strong-bad, even. Overreacting? I'd say no; definite disruption going on.

[DangerMouse]

Originally posted by MyraTrue
When I fenced with Purdue, there was one university (who shall go unnamed) who had a coach very like that. We all hated him, and my impression was his fencers didn't even like him. I liked most of the fencers...

I know that coach. He chewed out his fencers after loosing to my squad (we had the top seed going into the midwest team championships that year). All his fencers were nice and they mostly seemed to like him. I know I didn't.

[MyraTrue]

I'm glad it wasn't just our university! Our women's squad (sorry to say, and I AM one of them) isn't our strongest suit. But we've got some upcoming fencers all the same. I wish we'd been able to beat them on a regular basis (though more just because of an urge to be better fencers).

But I remember when we talked with some of the female fencers from that Uni, and they would laugh and tell us, "we just ignore him when he gets like this."

*shakes head* geez!

[labouche]

Originally posted by The0ne
Coaches like that always get bad reputations, and are shunned by all fencers not from his/her club. We have some like that up here in the Northeast coughChrisPullocough

hahaha, yeah isaiah, I would definitely agree that's taking it a little far.
-la bouche

[Mo]

There is this young saber fencer who is pretty nice but her sister is a total umm gorilla. She spent one entire bout sitting directly behind my daughter at her edge of the strip saying, "come one Sister, (not using her name) Anita is not all that, she thinks she all that but she's not all that!" Anita is not my kid's name either.
She was so annoying, she distracted her sister and she was on the end of the strip where she did not belong. The ref did nothing.
Fencing needs a courtesy patrol like ski areas have with a reasonable amount of power!
Offenders could have to clean up the garbage around strips or leave. They could wear a bright orange vest that says, "I CANNOT BEHAVE"

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Originally posted by Peach
In an early WS World Cup, one of the women in my pool was having a tough day. Her coach told her (and it was loud and overheard), "Don't worry. Just take the next one out 5-0 and I'll tell you what to do after that."

I was the next one, and I beat her.

As a strategy, not only is it inappropriate, it's ineffective.

See but this could be looked at as a good strategy for the coach. When someone ishaving a bad day, all the coaching in the world is not going to save them if they are still in the mental funk. Thus the coach instils their confidence in their fencer even though they are fnecing poorly. Granted, maybe he should have tried this technique when the next oponent wasn't you, but when there is nothing left to do, sometimes hands off(not coaching) is the best approach.

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

a while back in Summer Nationals, i was fencing a girl (foil) in my pool who was an E, and i was/am a U..it was the last bout of the pool, and her coach was screaming at her from the sidelines "come on, attack damnit! you can beat her! what's wrong with you??" etc etc..i only took it as a compliment.. but i kept doing what i was doing, and won 5-2 i believe, and after the bout my mom said she heard that same coach say "thats it. i quit. im not coaching anymore. i quit."....bit overreacting, nay..?

~Jes