Canadian flag causes flap in the U.S.

[pkt]

http://www.canada.com/search/story.a...0-bf1fa49cae39

Wednesday » December 10 » 2003
Canadian flag causes flap in the U.S.
http://www.canada.com/search/story.a...0-bf1fa49cae39

Wednesday » December 10 » 2003
Canadian flag causes flap in the U.S.
Maple Leaf on baggage irks 'sensitive' Americans
Jack Aubry

Foto caption:
A group of Canadian climbers celebrate their ascent of Mount Logan by waving the Canadian flag. While such achievements warrant national pride, Americans express irritation at the habit of Canadians using the flag while travelling to express nationality.



The Ottawa Citizen
OTTAWA -- Canadians should be careful not to appear "boastful" to Americans, who are insecure because of the war in Iraq and admit they are annoyed by northerners showing off the red maple leaf on their luggage when they travel, a recent federal report warns.
In focus groups held this fall in four U.S. cities where the federal government is opening consulates, Americans acknowledged they don't know much about Canadians.
"Some participants expressed a certain amount of annoyance at what is perceived as a systematic attempt by Canadians to make the statement that they are not Americans by sporting the maple leaf," said the recently released report. "This underscores the American sensitivity at feeling rejected by the rest of the world ...."
A front-page story by the New York Times this week, which declared that Canada's stance on social issues is opening rifts with the U.S., is unwittingly confirmed with the findings of the report.
Canadian comedian Rick Mercer said at a recent Toronto show that being attached to America is like "being in a pen with a wounded bull," joking that between gay marriage and pot smoking, "it's a wonder there is not a giant deck of cards out there with all our faces on it."
The report says even Americans who blame the Bush administration to some extent for the country's poor relations with the world, do not seem to understand why friendly countries and neighbours such as Canada would want to distance themselves from Americans.
For instance, an American from San Diego is quoted saying: "What bugs me about Canadians, if I may, is that they wear that damn patch on their bags, the Canadian flag patch. That way, they differentiate themselves from us."
The report is based on eight focus groups conducted in September by Millward Brown Goldfarb in San Diego, Raleigh, Denver and Houston where Canadian consulates are in the process of opening.
Pierre Bechard, a spokesman for Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada, said Millward Brown Goldfarb was paid $49,543 for the October report and focus groups. He said the findings will act as a base for the consulates to work to understand how much Americans understand about Canada and how they feel about their relationship with their northern neighbours.
© Copyright 2003 Vancouver Sun

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Also look at the political cartoon called
"Canada Insensitive"
http://caglecartoons.com/download.asp?linkTo=home


Letters to the Editor
http://www.canada.com/search/story.a...a-d524a40137ec
http://www.canada.com/search/story.a...c-66bcb81ff26e
http://www.canada.com/search/story.a...1-753949cfbe39
http://www.canada.com/search/story.a...0-9f88e12069b9
http://www.canada.com/search/story.a...a-a0f01d15a43e

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In today's Vancouver Sun there is another article about "US converging with Canada" written by Steven Edwards for CanWest News Service. I can't find the electronic copy of it. But this is practically the summary:
"It - a poll done by PEW Research Center for the People and the Press - showed Canadians share virtually the same outlook in most social issues with Americans close to the border. Overall data reveals differences because Americans inthe southern and southwestern states hace markedly different outlooks to Americans elsewhere."

This is the clsoest thing I could find on Google on this topic.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

North American Attitudes - Drifting Together or Apart?
The Border Breakfast Series
Tuesday, December 9, 7:30am
The Harvard Club
27 W. 44th Street
The Canadian Society of New York Foundation
RSVP to Sarah Kelly at (212) 935-3203
Email: skelly@nyc.fasken.com

The third installment of the Borders Breakfast Series will explore a subject that has a high level of interest on both sides of the American border. Given the success of NAFTA and our long-standing social integration and historical ties, are North American attitudes converging into a more unified approach? Or are we entering a phase where national differences may be on the upswing, leading to increased emphasis on diverging regional attitudes?

Led by Andrew Kohut, Director of the PEW Research Center, this discussion will draw upon recent survey data and Mr. Kohut`s analyses of issues that have been receiving increased attention in North American academic, government, and private enterprise circles.

[DHCJr]

I would call that 'The Pot calling the Kettle Black'. Look at how many from the U.S. with flags on their luggage, on their cars, in their windows. At running competions, when someone from the U.S. wins they will carry around a U.S. Flag or drape themself with a flag.

If the article is true and there are those who are upset, then I am ashamed of them.

I have seen enough of the world and I try to use U.S. when I am talking about my country. There are a lot more Americans than many in the U.S. think they are and we should embrace them as fellow Americans.

I am proud of what Americans have done for the World and that includes, Canada, Mexico, the Countries of South America, Central America, Latin America.

[Soldier]

The only thing that got me was the Canadians waving their flag at the top of Mt. Logan (I'm presuming that's in the US; if it's not, then disregard from this point forward). I would not fly an American flag on foreign soil, and I would not like any Canadian flying his flag on American soil. I've nothing against putting a flag around yourself at the end of a sporting event (everybody does it everywhere), or having it on luggage/clothes/whatever; just don't put it up as an actual flying flag; that generally denotes a territorial claim. I guess what I'm saying is, having it on your person or your stuff is fine, just don't put it up on our soil.

[whtouche]

DH, I think you're using the term "americans" way too broadly. Such, mexico, the US, canada, etc exist on north and south America. But that doesn't make canadians americans.

Similar terms, different meanings. What would you use to differentiate an citizen of the US from other "americans"? Would you call us "united statesians"?

As for the article(s):
"Canadians should be careful not to appear "boastful" to Americans, who are insecure because of the war in Iraq and admit they are annoyed by northerners showing off the red maple leaf on their luggage when they travel, a recent federal report warns."

That's kindof presumptuous and general. Many americans disliked canadians way before the war in iraq. I don't personally mind them, and have no reason to dislike them in the way that I dislike france and germany. The entire article seemed pretty arrogant to me.
If you ask me, it's canada that has a complex about the U.S., not the other way around. In the 2000 olympics, when Canada won the hockey gold from the U.S. there were mass celebrations in the streets. Why? Not so much because hockey is their national sport, or whatever. It's because Canada beat the U.S. and they have a huge inferiority-hiding-behind-a-superiority-complex about US.

90% of the canadian population lives on the border anyways, and I don't have the exact figures but last year, and for many years the trend has been many more canadians moving to the U.S. than americans moving north.

[Sabresque]

Originally posted by whtouche
DH, I think you're using the term "americans" way too broadly. Such, mexico, the US, canada, etc exist on north and south America. But that doesn't make canadians americans.

Hey, we haven't argued about this one yet (duck and cover!)

Seriously, though, I do try not to use American as a word for a US Citizen, because it bothers so many people. We need to find a better word... and I've thought about it jokingly. Still haven't come up with anything yet. United Statesian? In spanish, you can say Estadounidense, which is nice. Why don't we have another word in english?? Sorry, I just get tired of saying "United States Citizen". Too long. OK, I got like 5 hours of sleep and am babbling. Time to stop.

[DHCJr]

Have you ever heard of what happens when someone from the U.S. climbs Mt. Everest, they show a U.S. Flag. I don't believe Everest is part of the United States. We in the U.S. are always doing something like that. But when someone else does the exact same thing some in the U.S. complain.

If you haven't been with those from other countries in the Western Hemisphere, you don't know. The ones I have met feel they are just as American as anyone from the U.S. Haven't you everheard of the Pan-American Games. That is not just for the U.S, it is for all countries in the Americas.

I consider myself an American, but I don't exclude those from other countries in the 'Americas' from being American also.

When the citizens from the U.S., stops bandishing the U.S. flag in other countries, like on the top of mountains, THEN they can start critizing others. But if U.S. citizens continue to raise the flag in other countries, why can't others raise their own flag?

[blue_falcon]

Originally posted by whtouche

90% of the canadian population lives on the border anyways, and I don't have the exact figures but last year, and for many years the trend has been many more canadians moving to the U.S. than americans moving north.

That's because the rest of this darned country is WAY TOO COLD TO BE DECENTLY HABITABLE! I should know -- I'm in Ottawa, also known as the world's coldest freaking capital.

Brrrr............. I must admit, there are lots of days when I wistfully look back at the time when I was living in LA. Nice warm climate.... gorgeous babes .........

And now I'm in Ottawa. Colder than.... uhhh......... MOST of the cities in North America and where the women are all bundled up 6-8 months of the year. Nice beer though.

[Soldier]

Wasn't really aware of the Stars and Stripes getting hoisted on Everest, etc. Now that I am, I don't really agree with it. I think a lot has to do, too, with the country it's taking place in. You'll have to forgive my pathetic geography skills, but if (the country Everest happens to be in) doesn't mind, and there's plenty of other countries hoisting their flags (sounds dirty) up there, then I don't see how it's a problem. If they do, though, then by all means the practice should be stopped.

[DHCJr]

It seems whenever someone climbs a mountain, they bring a flag, but they bring it down with them. The problem is they don't bring down the rest of their trash. There is now a group that has been going up Everest, just to bring down the trash and if I remember right it is already over 1/2 ton that they have brought down. A lot of this is empty Oxygen bottles and broken poles, etc.

There are a number of papers in the US that will publish your picture, if you are holding their paper somewhere in the world. Taking a picture showing you and your flag, I don't find offensive. Now if they were to leave the flag up there or anything else, I would consider it trash and would be against it.

What is wrong with being proud to be from your country?

[Mo]

Great accomplishments by a fellow citizen in any endeavor when NOT in one's country are always celebrated by all the citizens. Athletic events inspire patriotism. Do it for the USA!
Look how they treat the winner of a BIG international fencing competition, like a world championship. The Gold Medal fencer is often tossed into the air. They are not tossed by people from other countries but from fellow athletes from their own country. (They are usually caught before hitting the ground and unharmed by this activity too.)
The very best thing about fencing in World competitions is that the people that hated you in the US and wanted you to fall on your face are now on your side and cheering. YEAH!! USA !!
Remember way back when the US Hockey team beat Russia in the Olympics?? Celebrations were the norm for most US citizens even though most have never been near a hockey puck.

People aways want to think their team is the best, their choice is the best etc. Look at the acrimony that exists between the foil, epee and sabrists not to mention the battle between the male and female sides of the sport.
The Canadians want to be superior, let them feel that way. Who cares?
They are Canadians....

[Inquartata]

I believe that the point of the article is that it is not being done to say "Hurrah, Canada!" but rather "Hurrah, we're not Americans!". Which is fine by me.

Meanwhile, today the US announced that Canada, like Russia, France and Germany, will not be allowed to bid for contracts on reconstruction projects in Iraq. So "Hurrah, we're not Canadians!"

[The0ne]

Ban Canadians from the USA!!!!!!! According to some of my friends who are girls, Canadian guys are much hotter than American ones, so we should lessen the competition!!!!!!!!

[Soldier]

Originally posted by DHCJr
It seems whenever someone climbs a mountain, they bring a flag, but they bring it down with them. The problem is they don't bring down the rest of their trash. There is now a group that has been going up Everest, just to bring down the trash and if I remember right it is already over 1/2 ton that they have brought down. A lot of this is empty Oxygen bottles and broken poles, etc.

There are a number of papers in the US that will publish your picture, if you are holding their paper somewhere in the world. Taking a picture showing you and your flag, I don't find offensive. Now if they were to leave the flag up there or anything else, I would consider it trash and would be against it.

What is wrong with being proud to be from your country?

Nothing wrong with the patriotism; I just put a lot more stock in the symbolism of planting a flag, on a pole, in the ground. I wouldn't even mind if the person pulled it out and held it up; just don't stick it on a pole.

[whtouche]

DH - I'd like to say that the absence of the subject in my post was my way of not arguing about the flag planting deal. I don't care if canadians come into the U.S., paint their cars with maple leafs and drive parade style down main streets every day. Doesn't bother me. I totally understand the national pride, accomplishment thing. In a world champ, or olympic games, you run track, you win, you drape yourself in your countries flag and go for a victory lap. I understand completely, and the fact that some americans are bothered by this I think is overactive "patriotism".

That being out of the way, I don't think you're making the same distinction that I am between the use of the term "american" to describe someone from the U.S., and the fact that many countries exist on the american continent. To explain how I feel about it, I would say it's almost like detaching the word "american" from the word "america". View them as two separate things. Wow this is coming off fuzzy. Think of the word "american" created to describe U.S. citizens, completely independant of the fact that this continent is "America". That's how I feel, wrong or right. And for mexicans or canadians to want to consider themselves "american", I can't stop them but I don't think it's technically right the way I view the term. They can already be canadians, or mexicans. They don't need a separate "an" to identify what continent they live on. And if they do, they can be north americans. Or south americans. Canadians, and U.S. citizens are all north americans, but U.S. Citizens are Americans.

It's late. I apologize to those who had to stumble thru this

[pkt]

Good discussion, people.

==)-------------

As ususal, DHC Jr's contribution is, IMHO, very to the point. There IS another term for the citizens for the northern parts of the USA: Yanks. Perhaps someone can illuminate me on the term, derogatory or otherwise for the non-Yanks.

==)-------------
Soldier, this is what I found as the first item in Google:
Peakware - Mount Logan
Mount Logan. Please sign our summit log! ... Whitehorse, Yukon. Mount Logan is
the highest peak in Canada and the second highest peak in North America. ...

Last time I looked Yukon is still part of Canada.

Mr. Logan was, I beleive, an English surveyor.

Mt Logan is the highest peak in Canada. There was another flap a couple years back when PM Jean Chretien wanted to rename Mt Logan to honour his former boss, PE Trudeau.

If you're a real soldier, I hope you should bone up on your geography before you have thoughts about another country.

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TheOne,
Remember, Canada was the ONLY country that successfully attacked the US of A. Of course the USA did the same too.

If you ban Canadians form the USA, imagine all the belly-aching from the merchants along the US border towns, the Floridans.

Perhaps, we should stop selling soft wood to you guys and sell it to the rest of the world, then you can see your price of new housing shoot out of sight. In fact the current legal squabble initiated by the US "Fair Lumber' practice trade group increases the price of a new house in THE USA by about USD1,000. And this is happening under NAFTA. They then have the gall to propose a deal that they get to keep half of the 29% levy taxed on Cdn softwood into the US. Not to mention the other stuff.

==)-------------

Talk about the trade war on steel the US has with the EU. The only reason the US backed down was the threatened retaliation is going to hit Pres. Shrub in the states he's weakest in 2004...
"Think globally, but act locally."

==)-------------

Yes, hockey is Canada's game; but Canada was not able to win both the Man's AND the women's title in the same year, not to mention just winning the darn thing until last Winter Olympics. So, there was great reason to celebrate.

Then there's that loonie in the centre ice mystique.

==)-------------

As the former PM Trudeau observed, "Living with the US is like a mouse sleeping with an elephant..." So you can imagine the inferiority complex Canada has vis a vis the US. Afterall, the US has 10X the population of Canada. It's the richest and most powerful nation in the world. That said, there is something that make Canada more palatable than the US.
I guess that's the "Canada is NOT the USA" factor; but a close proximity.
Thank to the "tensions" in the US after 9/11, a lot more of the foreign students choose to come to Canada in stead.
Then there's the aforementioned guns issue...

==)--------------

Per se, I find the American people not dissimilar to Canadians, but it is the Government!!! and some of the industries!!!!

Why is the City of Boston and the State of New Hampshire buying prescription drugs for their employees from Canada? The FDA and the other branch of the US governemtn deem that unsafe, not to mention illegal? Even though the drugs might be manufactured in the US? Why are the same drugs in the US cost 80% more than those in Canada. The answer lies in the 6 o'clock network news. Most of the ads during the network news are mostly all drugs related. The answer lie in the lobbying efforts in the Hill.

During an election, though you guys know there may be problems with the machines, why do you persist in using them? What's wrong with simple pen and paper? I know, volume... but machines can read the marks made by pens on paper too; that's what we use.

I think I'll stop here. This is turning into a "Why can't the Americans... be more like us?" - apologies to Prof, Henry Higgins.

PK

[pkt]

Oh yeah, what about Washington's decision to only let those countries that are in the Iraq coalition bid in the reconstruction of of Iraq.
Canada contribute $3 million to the reconstruction effort is not allowed to bid in those deals the US money funds...
What about the Cdn effort in Afghanistan?

And Prez Shrub wants the other nations to take over some of the US miliary's tasks so the US can pull some of the troops out... Hmmm, what do you think?

PK

[lochinvar]

pkt:

The problem with "Yank" as a term for all citizens of the US is that it's an abbreviation of "Yankee", which was the slang term used for the Federals in the Civil War. For many in the Southern US, calling someone a "Yankee" is about as perjorative as they can find in their lexicon...Y'all obviously ain't from 'round here!

And who cares what the Canadians do with their flag? It's a nice design, and we own Canada anyway, so just consider it the flag of the 51st State.

I, for one, don't care if they wave it or fly it or whatever wherever they please. It don't make 'em the Big Dog, so by all means wave away.

[The0ne]

do we all care this much??? Canada is a cool country, when I can understand what they're saying (stupid french language thing!!).

[Soldier]

Originally posted by pkt
==)-------------
Soldier, this is what I found as the first item in Google:
Peakware - Mount Logan
Mount Logan. Please sign our summit log! ... Whitehorse, Yukon. Mount Logan is
the highest peak in Canada and the second highest peak in North America. ...

Last time I looked Yukon is still part of Canada.

Mr. Logan was, I beleive, an English surveyor.

Mt Logan is the highest peak in Canada. There was another flap a couple years back when PM Jean Chretien wanted to rename Mt Logan to honour his former boss, PE Trudeau.

If you're a real soldier, I hope you should bone up on your geography before you have thoughts about another country.

==)-------------

Yes, it's shameful, I know. Don't worry, I've still got plenty of geography, PoliSci, etc., classes ahead of me, and if I ever have anything important to say (or an important decision to make) about a place, I will be sure to become informed about it.

[jeff]

If I recall correctly (and if it wasn't folklore): "Yankee" originally came from "Yankee Doodle", a derisive song the British used to sing to insult our rag-tag army of revolutionaries. We then adopted it as a defiant retort. I guess at the time it applied to southerners, but that's *definitely* not the case any more! Do *not* call somebody from below the Mason-Dixon line a Yankee. Don't even wear the baseball cap.