warmup vs stretching

[morael]

Here's some info that says stretching before exercise may actually weaken muscles. Advice is to do warmup (similar activity). Do stretching later.

Following is the article from http://www.musclemedia.com/insider.asp
There's more on the subject (of course) on the web; this one summed it up.

Pre-workout stretching zaps strength

As we reported a few months ago, an article published in The Physician and Sportsmedicine cast serious doubts about the worth of pre-workout stretching. According to the study—a comprehensive review of the scientific literature—stretching before exercise neither does a very good job at warming up your muscles nor reducing the risk for injury. “If injury prevention is the primary objective and the range of motion necessary for an activity is not extreme, the evidence suggests that athletes should drop the stretching before exercise and increase their warm-up time,” the authors write.

As if that weren’t bad enough news for the legions of toe-touching loyalists, now there’s word that pre-workout stretching could be the common man’s kryptonite. According to researchers at Nebraska’s Wayne State College, co-ed weight lifters who stretched their biceps before hitting a set of curls were significantly weaker compared to when they performed the curls without stretching. Seems getting a good stretch of the muscles before a workout reduces their stiffness and, consequently, zaps quite a bit of their strength. Says lead researcher Tammy Evetovich, Ph.D., “This suggests that performing activities that reduce muscle stiffness, such as stretching, may be detrimental to performance.”

[darius]

I'm not an exercise physiologist, but it would seem that it depends on the goals for the workout:

- For weightlifting, you're concentrating on putting maximum resistance on your muscles. A light warm up is good, but stretching is bad, for the aforementioned reasons.

- For fencing, you're going through a pretty significant range of motion, and pure strength isn't what's important. Static stretching exercises that range slowly.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here?

darius

[veeco]

Also, there are many different types of stretching... Some are beneficial for some things, but actually detrimental for others...

Finally, the commonly accepted practice right now is that you should not stretch before warming up your muscles first. You need to actually do a generic warmup, like running for about 10 minutes or until you start to sweat ligthly, and then do a warmup specific to the kind of exercise that you are going to do (so for fencing you would be doing light lunges, easy footwork, a couple of arm movements) and then do the stretching. While stretching you don't want to go over the natural ranges of motion of your joints. If it hurts while you stretch, you are stretching too much. Also, you want to avoid the "dynamic stretching" exercise where you are doing jerky motions with your limbs, as these will weaken joints and tendons. After this you would be ready to start your training routine or tournament.

This isn't news, it has been the generally accepted way to do things for a while now. So really it isn't "warmup vs stretching", but warmup, and THEN stretching. You don't have to choose between the 2.

[dreadfoily]

Stretching has been something some salles stay away from because of several reasons, some feel that lunging is sufficent stretching after your running warmups, the second thing is that most students insist on bouncing in their stretches and it brings about micro-tears. We did ballet at the bar, all 5 positions - sounds weird - but it worked out nicely for us. We were in very good condition from the workout, it all depends on the knowledge of the director in the salle and the abilities and good intentions of the people he selects to lead in his absence.

If you have the kids jump in there and fence without the legwork, it's okay, but you'll have more arguments about ROW, and remise because no-one will know that you should step back in a riposte and forward in an attack.

However on the micro-tear thing, I wonder if it's even a true factor and whether or not it was all just a bunch of complaining about sore ankels?

[fencingfoil]

I took a look at the article and it wasn't very detailed. What I have learned about stretching is that it desensitizes the muscle spindle reaction.

The muscle spindle is a motory sensory nerve located in muscles. It forces the muscle to contract when it is stretched too far. If you are in a low en guard position you are actually activating the muscle spindle in the back calf and gluteus maximus, so when you lunge the spindle gives you extra sping (i.e. more power). When you desensitize the spindle you lose power and quickness.

I do not stretch before any competitions. During practice I will do some static stretching before, and more vigorous stretching afterwards. Stretching is also very important in maximizing you lunge distance and recover phase.

Conclusion: You need to find a balance where you maximize distance without losing power.

[cowpaste]

I read a book a few years ago on stretching. I think it was called "Scientific Stretching" by Thomas Kurtz. He advocates dynamic streching before the main workout.

Joint rotations
General warmup
Dynamic stetching
Sport specific warmup
Main workout
Then relaxed stretching

When I first read this I was rather shocked. Then I actually tried not doing relaxed stretching beforehand. I was fine, and I indeed felt stronger.

Currently I spin around in circles as the rest of my team stretches before their workout. They do not do stretches afterwards. I think this is a bad thing.

[thebigriddle]

warn up then stretch, what does this mean? Well do something to get the heart rate up, light footwork. You want the muscles warm, before stretching this reduces the chance of injury. At least that is the most common opinion among sports trainers. I general have my fencers do some light footwork. Meaning nothing too intense. Then stretch for a while.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

I've been doing this for a while, jsut seemed to help me, never knew why until now. I just try to seem like I am doing something else when the team stretched because I have my own warm up routine I like to follow.

[vegan]

Any "weakening" of muscles from stretching is temporary, and will not adversely affect performance in the long term.

However, stretching is generally misunderstood by most athletes.

Flexibility is important for fencers because thay need to be able to cover distance with their lunges. If the muscles are not supple, then the "stretch" that occurs in the lunge will be transferred from the muscles to the connective tissue--i.e...ligaments and tendons, especially in the legs, hips, knees, and lower back. This is why so many fencers get tears and micro-tears in the tendons connecting the hamstrings to the pelvic bowl. Ligaments are not designed to be stretched--they are tight to protect the joints. Once they are stretched, they never return to their normal length, leaving the joint prone to recurring injuries if the bones slip out of alignment. Very often a fencer will experience knee problems because their hips do not have a full range of motion. Consequently, the knees will rotate, (which they are not meant to do), resulting in a torn meniscus, or weak or torn ACLs. LCLs, or MCLs (The ligaments of the knee joint.)

That said, you don't actually gain flexibility by stretching before a workout. If you stretch and then immediately contract the muscles, they don't stay lengthened. (Makes sense, huh?) First the muscles need to be warmed up by some activity, such as running, jumping, rope. footwork, sun salutations, etc., then they should be stretched, and the streches need to be held long enough for the muscles to stay lengthened--about 30-40 seconds per stretch. Stretching before practice or competition may give you a psychological boost, but the real benefit comes with stretching afterward.

-E

[I_luv_saber]

I never listen to these studies and such (unless they've been around a few years without being disproven), as so very many have usually found to be wrong a year or 2 later, get disproven immediatley, etc. I just do my own thing... 1) Run for about 10 min. (lightly) 2) Light footwork. 3) Stretching. 4) Another 2 or 3 min. of light running. 5) fencing. 6) cool downs and stretching.

I also know if I do not go through the pre-fencing stuff, I almost always wind up pulling a muscle. And if I do not do the after-fencing stuff, I usually wind up with very stiff or sore muscles later.
That's what I go by, and it has always worked for me, and never given me any trouble.

[dreadfoily]

It seems to come up now and then as an area of concern. Yoga is almost all stretching and it's been around for a couple of hundred years. I've known very good fencers that don't want to stretch before a competition, I thinnk it's because they're so in tune with what they have to do next a little streching wont' do much, unless they've bunched their musles up. They fence so much they know instictively when to build up and when to relax the muscles a bit. I liked getting a massage 3 days before a belt test when I studied karate, it relaxed the muscles, and got rid of the chi, then no class for a day and just relax, while going over the katas, slowly at home, and then take the test. My best belt was double purple.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Originally posted by I_luv_saber
I never listen to these studies and such (unless they've been around a few years without being disproven), as so very many have usually found to be wrong a year or 2 later, get disproven immediatley, etc. I just do my own thing... 1) Run for about 10 min. (lightly) 2) Light footwork. 3) Stretching. 4) Another 2 or 3 min. of light running. 5) fencing. 6) cool downs and stretching.

I also know if I do not go through the pre-fencing stuff, I almost always wind up pulling a muscle. And if I do not do the after-fencing stuff, I usually wind up with very stiff or sore muscles later.
That's what I go by, and it has always worked for me, and never given me any trouble.

Yeah but you actually do what this particular study recomends.

[I_luv_saber]

Well, I was just stating my indifference to these studies.

[vegan]

I am a yoga teacher.

Yoga is not "almost all stretching." While most of the asana (yoga pose) practice does open muscles, generally the emphasis is on strength first, then flexibility. In a hatha vinyasa practice, first you build heat by doing sun salutations, then you do standing poses, which strengthen the lower abdomen, pelvic floor, and legs, while slowly opening the hips and hamstrings. You maintain heat with vinyasa (moving on the breath). You might do some arm balances, which strengthen the core and the upper body. Then you do the backbends, which strengthen the upper back and the abdomen, while slowly opening the chest, hip flexors, and quadriceps. Then you do inversions (headstand, handstand etc) which strengthen the upper body and the abdomen. Then, after going through that progression, you do the deep stretches. It is generally considered dangerous to do very deep stretching without properly warming up the body, and it is considered more important that you have the strength to hold up your own body than that you can put your foot behind your head. I am, of course, biased, but I believe it is a very balanced approach.

You could achieve a similar balance in fencing by warming up the body with jogging, jumping rope, footwork, etc, then some light active stretching such as working from a short lunge to a longer lunge, or if you are familiar with asana, doing some standing poses. Then you could fence. Afterward, before you've cooled off, stretch.

Then after that you'll probably want to eat something.

-E