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mollusk · 12-08-2003, 10:21 PM

This actually happened in a foil bout. Fencer A launches a fleche against Fencer B, both right handed. Fencer B holds ground and does a parry 4 with a scrunched up body. In this particular position Fencer B's point is angled in toward the center of strip. Fencer A's attack lands on B's parry and then A quickly cuts over and lands a valid hit on B in mid fleche. In the process A is impaled on B's point so both lights come up. B never extended after making the parry. In fact, B didn't move at all after taking the parry 4 position. What is the correct call?

FlamingDeth · 12-08-2003, 10:40 PM

If the attack was successfully parried, I believe that right of way goes to B, extension or not.

mollusk · 12-08-2003, 11:55 PM

But don't you have to do something to get ROW? I have always thought that after a parry the defender is entitled to ROW with the riposte, but does not have ROW if he does nothing. In t.7 it says that the riposte is the offensive action made by the fencer who has parried. Can being stationary in a parry position be considered as an offensive action?

prototoast · 12-09-2003, 12:20 AM

If the blade moves towards the body or the body moves towards the blade, it's still B's riposte.

***Craig*** · 12-09-2003, 11:58 AM

It's parry-riposte yes, remise - yes, out of time.

You don't have to extend if your opponent is genorously doing the work for you.

Craig

edew · 12-09-2003, 12:19 PM

What B did is use A's movement to score the point. I don't think even classical fencing enthusiasts would call it otherwise. B made the parry. That ends A's attack. A is hit. That's B's riposte.

Heck it's even possible for B to pull back the arm and still get the riposte. Whatever it takes to get the point on the target, I say.

mollusk · 12-09-2003, 01:58 PM

Thanks for the replies. This was driving me nuts. If the phrase was slower, then I could see that there would be clear hesitation on B's part to riposte and so A could regain ROW with the remise. I see that sort of action often. In this case I think it becomes a question of whether or not B had time to even start extending before the remise was launched. Because of human reaction time I would think that an "immediate" riposte is allowed some small delay from the time of the parry. In this instance there was precious little time to start an extention; probably less time than one would normally allow for a garden variety "immediate" riposte. So of course I went to the rule book to see exactly how a riposte is defined. It seemed a bit harsh to me to not allow the riposte in this case, but in t.7 the riposte is the offensive action after the parry. I was trying hard in my mind to figure out how not moving could be construed as an offensive action. I'm glad that we are allowed some latitude here. It just didn't seem right to not allow the riposte and award the touch to B.

edew · 12-09-2003, 03:30 PM

Reaction time is never the issue. I often, at practice and in competition, make an attack that requires my opponent to make a deep parry. I then make an immediate remise and then back out with an attempt to parry and late-coming riposte. In many cases, my remise hits so soon before the arrival of the riposte. But as long as the riposte was done with a continuous motion (not complex multiple disengages -- and I'm usually not privy to seeing that, as I'm sometimes ducking or whatever, putting me out of position to see my opponent's blade), and lands on target, the point is for my opponent, and I readily concede the point. I would never claim my remise should count.

pkt · 12-09-2003, 05:48 PM

I know the inital question is about foil, but a sabre lesson will illustrate this concept best.

The action is simple parry riposte.
Master makes the attack
The student makes the riposte.
Master remises.

Why would the master do that? Simply to make sure that the student makes the riposte IMMEDIATELY, in-time. If not the Master''s remise would be good.

The riposte does not have to be there first, since it does have RoW. Imagine a 'ceding parry' - that's what Eric calls a "deep parry' - with the attacker going pass in a fleche, the riposte is going to land later than the remise. If the ref calls it against an immediate riposte, then the defender would be robbed.

Of course, if the riposte is delayed... that's another fecning time and a different story.

PK

mollusk · 12-09-2003, 05:57 PM

Eric,

I have no problem with what you say. The question I have is what is the time difference between an immediate riposte and a delayed riposte. Clearly the immediate riposte does not have to start within a few nanoseconds after the parry as that time scale is not appropriate for describing human motion. Nor should it be as long as a few seconds after the parry. The difference between an "immediate" riposte and a "delayed" riposte should be around a small multiple of the human reaction time. It is in this context that human reaction time comes into play.

edew · 12-09-2003, 06:17 PM

An immediate riposte has to begin immediately. It just doesn't have to be quick to finish. And a delayed riposte, while does not begin immediately, may be finished quickly.

Typically, the fencer makes a parry and then releases the blade. The interpretation by the referee concerning that release is that the defender is now making the riposte movement. If that riposte movement is not continuous (smooth = infinitely differentiable, for the math geeks), then there is a delay, even if that delay is infinitesimally brief.

The remise, also would have to be immediate, so that the attacker cannot be following the riposte for a moment and then choose to make a remise.

There is no chronological time difference (other than the block-out time set to the machine, which is currently about 1/2 second, and will be shortened to .33 seconds). Even at .33 seconds, there is plenty of time.

The difference between immediate and delayed is the referee's interpretation of the action: did the riposter intend to delay the riposte because of some reason, or did the riposter intend to make an immediate riposte? If the referee says it was an immediate riposte, then it is, even if it was carried out slowly. If the referee says it was delayed (or made with compound actions), then it was. Of course, in this latter case with compound actions, the referee better be right that there were compound actions (more than a simple disengage, possible coupes, whatever).

BTW, this very issue was discussed in the article by Jeff Bukantz in an issue of the American Fencing magazine. I believe it was the issue coming after the Summer Nationals (2003). He clearly explains why the riposte has priority, even if the remise hits first.

dreadfoily · 12-09-2003, 09:36 PM

I gave the point to A, he circled the parry and continued the attack, landing his point on a valid target, while B, though he parried did not seem to immediately riposte in this example.

prototoast · 12-09-2003, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dreadfoily
I gave the point to A, he circled the parry and continued the attack, landing his point on a valid target, while B, though he parried did not seem to immediately riposte in this example.

If A is doing all this in a properly executed fleche, there is no way B's riposte could not be in time.

Agent_V · 12-10-2003, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by edew
...If that riposte movement is not continuous (smooth = infinitely differentiable, for the math geeks)...

You obviously never were one EDEW...
smooth (in terms of a parameterized curve f(t)) means that f'(t) exists, is continuous and is never equal to 0.

-Alexander

dnichols · 12-10-2003, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dreadfoily
I gave the point to A, he circled the parry and continued the attack, landing his point on a valid target, while B, though he parried did not seem to immediately riposte in this example.

It doesn't make any difference which direction A's remise travels in. Whether it changes lines or just goes really really fast, A is still making a continuation of their failed attack without an attempt to regain ROW. As long as the riposte is immediate, either from an extension or a willing opponent throwing him/herself onto the point, B gets the touch. If B goes to lunch before landing the riposte, sure - award it to A. Otherwise, be really well prepared for a screaming riposter if you're directing and make the call as you state above. "Attack parried, riposte arrives, remise." End of call.