French vs Pistol Grip

[drizzt_do_urden]

As a novice foil fencer who has just started going to tournaments in the past couple months I had some questions regarding types of grips. I've noticed that virtually none of the foilists at competitions use french grips, yet some (admittedly a small percentage) of the epeeists do. Why is this? Or maybe more specifically, what advantages would a french grip give an epeeist that it wouldn't give to a foilist?

In relation to this, are there any current world class foilists or epeeists that use a french grip in competition? And, have there been any studies/surveys done on ranked or rated competative fencers that include data on grip usage or preference?

Note that I'm not asking for a bunch of argumentative opinions on which grip you like better.

[40Saberthieves]

I fence sabre, but I have gatherd

Pistol= strength

French= control

[Prometheus]

You can have as much control with an orthopedic grip as a French grip if you use it correctly.

This is why there are no world class foilists that I know of that use French grips. In fact a significant proportion of coaches start their foil students with pistols. The idea that finger play is inhibited by the pistol grip is a misconception that has been encouraged by people that hold pistol grips incorrectly (often to tightly or inappropriately sized grip). The pistol grip does allow for a more anatomical hand position and more power.

The advantage over the pistol grip that is exploited by a few (only one that I can think of offhand) world class eppe fencers is that the French grip can be legally held by the pommel. It extends reach by about 3 or 4 inches and may provide some other benefit that is better explained by someone who actually does this (damianap?).

[Duelist]

the French is virtually unused in foil due to the emphasis on blade work and the fact that you can be hit hard at any momment. However the french grip is still very much alive in epee, which is more of a distance game. In epee by holding the french by the end (pommeling) you can gain additional reach, and with careful bladework avoid being pushed around. On the subject of world class fencers: Jeannet who won this years World Championship in epee and placed second at last years uses a french.

[cowpaste]

I used to think I was super cool because I used a French grip in foil. Then I started fencing people who actually parried and stuff. I had to readjust the grip in my hand each time I was parried or whenever I parried myself. This is a bad thing, and it will make you lose.

[wflaschka]

French epeeist Laura "The Wasp" Flessel-Colovic uses a French grip, to great advantage. Epeeists are allowed to hold the grip by the pommel (called "pommeling"), which gives greater reach at the expense of power.

As for great foilists using the French grip -- I seem to remember a French-grip user in an U-19 National finals or JO finals I fenced in, way back in my youth. That's the highest level of fencing I've seen the grip in -- that I can remember!

The French is an excellent learning grip, because new fencers can learn to "fix" the wrist by keeping the pommel against the wrist. It's visible from across the room when someone is "breaking" their wrist. Pistol grips offer no such feedback (or rather, very little).

Aside: When I started giving lessons, I switched to the French... it took months of pain, but nowadays my hand has never been stronger, and my technique has never been better.

For competitive foil, however, pistol grips give the right balance of power and control. Veeco is a big proponent of French grips, IIRC, perhaps he'll post.

[edew]

You can "pommel" in foil as well, but there's little benefit derived from doing so.

In epee, that 3 extra inches is the difference between your light coming on or your opponent's (or both).

There's a more "detente" in epee, so having your blade beaten, perhaps hard, isn't necessarily a disadvantage. In foil, having your blade beaten, perhaps softly, gives the right of way to your opponent. A hard beat will give the right of way to your opponent and make you lose control as well.

[veeco]

Big proponent of French grips, in epee only!

I started fencing epee wih a pistol grip. After a couple of years, I switched to a French one. I have since then found "the way".

Basically all the reasons that Walter and Eric said are the right reasons why there are a significant portion of fencers using a French grip in epee and that portion just isn't there in foil.

In epee, 2 of the last 3 world champions use the French. At least 4 of the world top 16 fencers that I know of use a French. So it is not such a small portion.

I recently was at a tournament and heard in the locker rooms while people where changing that it was really hard to come back and make up a touch deficit against a French grip user. It is. Basically the French grip user with added reach and better finger play can keep their opponents out of distance easier and his/her counter attacks will be more threatening.

The last time I heard of a foil fencer using a French grip at international level was Philippe Omnes, in the 1996 Atlanta olympic games. There may have been one French junior who competed in one recent world championship with a French grip as well.

[cowpaste]

Here's another question. Of all the top épée fencers that use the French grip, do all of them pommel? That is, do they all use French for those extra centimeters of reach?

[veeco]

Yes all of them pommel. Some of them might not be pommelling all the time, and change the position of their hand during the bout depending on what they want to do. But at some point they all pommel.

[jBirch]

Here's my take on the issue.

In my opinion, the French is a much better grip for all-round fencing, however, it takes much longer to figure out. One of the things that I hate about the pistol grip is the upward prong that gets in the way of really feeling the opponent's blade through mine an advantage that the French has as well. The French is much more agile at angulation (the pistol grip, by design, makes it harder to angulate extremely) and is better at infighting (again, because of the ability to really angulate it). Pommelling gives you a not insignificant advantage at all levels in epee, however, it is absolutely impossible to flick with it. *grin* (well, not impossible but pretty hard to do it right) It is also easy to knock it out of someone's hand and generally take advantage of when opposed with strength. (the key to the French is to not get opposed with strength). Because of that, in foil, it works well as a beginner tool, gets whalloped as an intermediate tool and then makes an average comeback as an expert tool. In epee, it doesn't get creamed as an intermediate tool.

What I see happen is that a beginning fencer reaches a point where the flick and the strength of a beat/attack start to take precedence in their game. Part of this is because they haven't figured out how to move right and their timing is off, part of it is because they haven't figured out the real precision required to make the french really work and finally, they haven't figured out how to handle flicks and strong beats. So, they get to a point where the french "no longer works" and they switch to the pistol grip. Coaches who are interested in competition encourage the change because their fencers do better with the flick and strong-beats in their arsenal when it comes time to make a choice for the same reason: other students find them hard to counter. So a beginning-intermediate fencer with a pistol grip does better in competition then one with a french grip. In order to be a top-level fencer you need to have been a good beginner/intermediate fencer. See the issue?

When you get to the higher levels, the advantage offered by the flick in certain circumstances and the lack of intermediate training with the French, conspire to give the pistol grip prominance. It's the kind of thing that takes 10 years to figure out properly which means that, almost by definition, you are outside of your athletic peak when you can really take advantage of it. Add to that the lack of precision required to hit the foil target (it's pretty damn big!) and point control/minimal arm target (the real advantage of the french) and you've got a game where the pistol grip gives one a not insignificant mechanical and technical advantage. It's also why older fencers/coaches tend to go back to the French grip when they start to get out of competition.

In epee, where precision, angulation and reach are more important than strength and flickability, you have a place where the pistol grip doesn't have the same advantage over the french even at intermediate levels, so you see it more often at higher levels. Epeeists generally aren't as scared of the flick/strong-beats and have figured them out earlier, so the compelling reason to switch at the beginner/intermediate transition isn't as strong.

Hope this helps.

[mhoneth]

Are fencers still allowed to use straps to bind the sword to the hand/wrist?

[veeco]

Not with a French grip. There was a thread sometime ago with the answer from an official from the FOC

[Popper]

but are you allowed to do so with the classic italian grip then?

[Tireur]

The rules used to state specifically that you could use them.

I can't find anything about them now, so, they'e not prohibited.

[Prometheus]

There are a number of old threads that discuss why none other then the extreme minority (in Olympic style fencing) of Italian grip users would want to use a strap.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with jBirch’s analysis in two fundamental ways.

1) With a correctly sized pistol grip you do not loose any mobility. The grip should be held with the fingers and does indeed allow for a great deal of infighting and angulation. If you want evidence of angulation and infighting with a pistol grip search for pictures of Sabine Bau.

2) I have seen no evidence that the French grip "Makes an average comeback as an expert tool." I don’t think there are any current world level foilists using the French.

In my opinion the idea that foil is more of a strength game and epée more of a precision game is also a misconception. But, that is just my opinion.

[edew]

There is strength in epee, but strength without proper context is meaningless in epee.

If you beat the blade hard in epee, what do you get? First your blade is now a bit out of control. Second, you can't just launch an attack after that. Your opponent doesn't have to defend, just stick the arm out.

If foil, if you beat the blade hard, even with a diminished control on your own weapon, you know you have right of way. That means your opponent is going to be defensive, which means your hard beat might have loosen his grip on his weapon and your attack might just succeed.

[veeco]

Case in point of edew's post, last week-end I fenced in a tournament. I clearly recall fencing one bout, against a pistol grip user, where about 10 of my touches where scored on occasions where my opponent had beaten my blade, went for the touch, and got hit by my remise before his hit arrived.

The first couple of times it happened, he just tried beating harder, and got hit again. When he finally realised what was happening, I had already scored a bunch of touches.

In foil this wouldn't be a problem, because of the latency in the machines and ROW. In epee it is.

[Masterurethane]

The pistol grip is ugly, it really is.

Fencing is more about grace than victory.

[drizzt_do_urden]

Thanks for everyone's input to my questions. I appreciate the information. I now have some follow up questions for a few of you (and while I'm addressing these questions to specific individuals, anyone else also feel free to give your input.)

Edew: If my memory serves me correctly, I think I remember reading one of your posts where you said you tried using a french grip in a foil competition, and concluded that flicking was actually easier with it than a pistol grip. However I can't find where that post was - can you direct me to it? Or just reitterate why you tried that, what you liked/disliked, and any other pertinant information you may want to volunteer. (Of course, maybe my memory is off and you never made such a post.)

Veeco: Since you are a supporter of french grip in epee, I assume you "pommel" with it at times. When using this technique, do you still hold or control the blade with your thumb and fingers, or do you grip it tighter and use your wrist for blade/point control? Also, do you use varying degrees of pommeling - meaning maybe sometimes you grip it half-way down, instead of all the way at the pommel? And lastly, what factors influence your choice to pommel or use a traditional grip? I hope my questions make sense, as my inexperience may hinder my use of the correct terms.