Mangiarotti tip

[MikeHarm]

You only have to deal with 2 springs if you don't get the FIE tips with the solid contact.

Originally posted by qatet
Even if we do have to buy all new tips, we still get to use tip tape to hold the pesky screws in, and don't have to deal with two sets of springs.

[Namir]

Originally posted by Barry Paul
The F.I.E. congress where shown a mangiarotti new tip, which like a epee point has a 2.0 mm travel before a hit is scored.
There was a demonstration at which every one was told this would eliminate flick hits. In a vote paper one of the 15 or so questions voted on by every country was 'should Magiarotte points be used/trialed.'?

The points I think that were not considered were:
1. Cost?
2. Reliability?
3. Did they work?
4 Is there a overwhelming problem with flick hits?

As on of the major world Manufactures we have not yet seen the point so its difficult to give a measure reply. However I would guess.
1. 50% more.
2. Many foil points are already unreliable, keeping the same point diammeter will be very difficult and result in a thin wall thickness that already gives problems on continental points.
3. Will it work? Probable not or only prevent an insignificant number of flick hits registering. The question you must ask is, Can you flick hit at epee (the answer is yes)? Certainly fencers will adapt hitting technique to follow the point through ensuring the hit has travel and dwell time (defeating the effect of the proposed increased timing before hits will register).
It is likely the point will be heavier which will make flick hitting easier. (smart move)
4. Is there a problem. Not at Internation senior level, at the last world Champ final there were only one or two flick hits.

So we have a proposed. un-tested change in point design, to cure a fault that does not exist, voted on by people who have no idea and technical expertiese,which probably doesn't work. About par for the F.I.E.

Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul.

Barry, don't you think that the Mangiorotti tip is just one element in the movement to eliminate the flick attack? I don't think that anyone is expecting this tip to eliminate the filck all by itself. But this tip combined with the other new rules should seriously curtail flick attacks.

Also, you stated that the flick is "a fault that does not exist" because flicks are uncommon at International Senior Level. Have you been to lower level competions lately? It is like they are fencing with flyswatters. It would be ridiculous to suggest that we should base the rules to fit the fencing style of the top 1% of the fencers in the world.

I would agree that they definitely need to be tested to ensure thier reliability.

[Namir]

Originally posted by Rolls
I think the idea behind most of these changes is that not one of them will eliminate flicks, but ALL of them combined are likely to decrease flicks tremendously.

Sure flicking still exists in epee, but exists VERY differently than it does in foil which may be what the FIE is going for. All in all, I think the changes are for the better.

Rolls.

Good point, when was the last time you saw an epee bend 180 degrees over someones shoulder and score a touch in the middle of the back, the tip touching with all the force of a mosquito landing?

[wflaschka]

It would be ridiculous to suggest that we should base the rules to fit the fencing style of the top 1% of the fencers in the world.

I'm sure the suggestion was that, as you watch increasingly better fencers, the true value of the flick becomes apparent. At the highest level of the skillset, the flick is revealed as a minor tool.

If lower-level competitions are fought with flyswatters -- what better way to learn how to beat the flick? The fencers who climb into the upper rounds are the ones who are not stymied by this action. Limiting an action merely because people use it -- next we'll have a federation of right-handed fencers voting to remove the flank as target area, because lefties always nail them there.

Personally, if I don't want to get flicked, I parry them. I see these changes as a way of reviving the importance of point-attacks, and all the concommittant technique like parries, binds, coupés, feint disengages which have been languishing since the latest Russian genius stopped competing. Reducing flicks is a secondary affect.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by MyraTrue
Inq- there's not much else to DO with epee.

See, you're thinking logically. You forget that it's the FIE we're talking about here...

[MyraTrue]

I forgot. HOW could I forget???

Man... if they ever get their hands on epee, we'll be doomed. But I still don't know what you can change. We have so few rules in epee, compared to foil. There's no ROW, the weapon seems functional, has no controversial tools (ie- the flick, or not as much so, though you CAN flick with an epee).

GOt me.

[Tireur]

They've killed foil, then again... 2mm really isn't that much I'm pretty sure you can still flick

So.....foil is only about the flick???? If you can't flick, then foil is dead?

Get a game

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by MyraTrue
Man... if they ever get their hands on epee, we'll be doomed. But I still don't know what you can change.

How 'bout the addition of a wired main gauche? And capes, and bucklers, and a neat little slot on the side of the FIE approved mask to hold the quill of a long feather plume?

Now THAT'S must-see-TV!

[darius]

So.....foil is only about the flick????

To hear the FIE sound off about it, you would think so.

darius

[Wizardly]

Of course epee is next on the chopping block. In an effort to reduce incorrect floor hit calls, epee fencers will be required to wear full-body lames, and little booties that cover their feet; top to bottom in conductive cloth. Naturally, corp a corps will be carded, just like foil and saber. An the fleché: you KNOW they're just itching to remove that as well. Epee is also slate to be the first weapon to use weapons with microprocessors; when you score a hit, the readout on the box displays the hit time. And don't forget the delay time: no more double touches; if, after the 1/25 of a second the other fencer hasn't scored, the box will register a hit, if the other fencer double touches, the box will not go off.

This is how I could ruin epee, imagine what teh FIE could do.

Seriously though, with this new tip, will shim testing be required? Will the added weight be subtracted from the 200 gram blade flexibility testor? What spring stiffness is required for this new tip? Just what percentage of flicks do they expect this to eliminate by itself? coupled wtih other rules?

[Rolls]

Acually, all joking aside.,I did read on the FIE site about some proposed changes to epee.

http://www.fie.ch/

Most of them are just number things, but the interesting one was that they are considering adding RoW to epee. Also, I heard they may limit target area to either exclude the feet and legs or to only include the trunk of the body.

Can't wait to hear how the vote goes for these.

Rolls.




ok. I'm just joking. : )
All joking really aside, I like the new foil rules. Pesrsonally, I never liked the flick; so, if they decide to limit it, fine by me.

[MikeHarm]

Lol..that was evil.

[westcoastsabre]

Wow... remind me to read the whole post before scouring the FIE website for how the FIE is going to destroy another fencing weapon.

[Barry Paul]

What foil needs to do is get the referees and the fencers to agree that the present rules should be followed. A flick hit is often effective because the step forward with absence of point is given as the attack.

Deciding to change to some new point without proper consultation, testing and proper appreciation of the problems is just stupid. Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul