A rules question (double hit)

[Jimi Hullegård]

Hi

I have a question about the fencing rules, and if someone could help me it
would be great.

I have a task to write a simple fencing computer program, that should be
able to show points for hits. But there is one thing I find unclear. Here is
the part of the instructions that I don't understand (translated from
Swedish):
"A hit is valid if it lasts more then 10ms and occurs before or within 40ms
after the other person got a hit (double hit)."

When I searched for "double hit" I found this site:
http://www.dictionaryofgambling.com/...rms/fencing/d/
and it says "In epee, two attacks that arrive within 40-50 ms of each
other." But what does that mean exactly? Can the first attack be from player
A and the second attack from player B, as long as the second attack occurs
within 40-50ms of the first attack? It doesn't say anything if the two
attacks have to be from the same player or both players or if it doesn't
matter.

In the following, I simply asume that the double hit can be an attack and a
counterattack

And also, regarding the 40 milliseconds, between what events does the time
have to he at most 40ms?
Consider the following senario:

Time Event
100ms Player A starts a hit
110ms The hit of player A becomes valid
120ms Player A ends the hit
140ms Player B starts a hit
150ms 10ms from the start of the hit of player B
160ms Player B ends the hit


The instructions says that the hit of player B is valid if it occurs within
40ms after the hit of player A happend. But should I measure the time
between 100ms and 140ms, 100ms and 150ms, 110ms and 140ms, 110ms and 150ms,
120ms and 140ms or 120ms and 150ms?

Hope you understand the question.
And thanks in advance for any input!

/Jimi

[Joseph Haig]

I don't know anything about the hit having to last 10ms. This is what the
English translation of the rules say:

(b) Timing

The apparatus must register only the first hit which is made. If the
interval of time between two hits is less than 40 milliseconds (1/25th of
a second), the apparatus must register a double hit (both signal lamps
must light up simultaneously).

When the interval is greater than 50 milliseconds (1/20 of a second) the
apparatus must register only one hit (only one signal lamp is lit). The
tolerance allowed for timing the apparatus is that between these two
limits (1/25th and 1/20th of a second).

This is taken from the epee section of "ANNEXE B TO THE MATERIAL RULES",
which can be found at:

<http://www.leonpaul.com/download/armoury.htm>

[Jimi Hullegård]

Joseph Haig wrote:
> I don't know anything about the hit having to last 10ms. This is
> what the English translation of the rules say:
>
> (b) Timing
>
> The apparatus must register only the first hit which is made. If the
> interval of time between two hits is less than 40 milliseconds
> (1/25th of a second), the apparatus must register a double hit
> (both signal lamps must light up simultaneously).
>
> When the interval is greater than 50 milliseconds (1/20 of a
> second) the apparatus must register only one hit (only one signal
> lamp is lit). The tolerance allowed for timing the apparatus is
> that between these two limits (1/25th and 1/20th of a second).
>
> This is taken from the epee section of "ANNEXE B TO THE MATERIAL
> RULES", which can be found at:
>
> <http://www.leonpaul.com/download/armoury.htm>

Thanks!

Regarding the 10ms: I spoke with my teacher today, and he said that we can
asume that all hits last more then 10ms, so I can just ignore that when I
write the program. I find it strange that he put it there in the first place
if we can ignore it, but hey that's my teacher in a nutshell.

Jimi

[Jonathan Jefferies]

Jimi,
You haven't been very specific as to what your program will be doing.
Will it be a scoring machine, connected to the weapons and registering
the hits or something that will take input - such as a button or
other signal from another machine?

If you are trying to create a scoring machine then you will definitely
need to be aware of the 10 ms. and program so that anything less would
be discarded. By that I mean that when a set of points close (epee) or
open (foil) then the raw signal must be cleaned up before being counted.
That means taking into consideration that a "raw" signal from a single
touch might consist of a number of pulses which have to be integrated
(debounced) and made into a single count.

J.

Jimi Hullegård wrote:
> Joseph Haig wrote:
>
>>I don't know anything about the hit having to last 10ms. This is
>>what the English translation of the rules say:
>>
>> (b) Timing
>>
>> The apparatus must register only the first hit which is made. If the
>> interval of time between two hits is less than 40 milliseconds
>> (1/25th of a second), the apparatus must register a double hit
>> (both signal lamps must light up simultaneously).
>>
>> When the interval is greater than 50 milliseconds (1/20 of a
>> second) the apparatus must register only one hit (only one signal
>> lamp is lit). The tolerance allowed for timing the apparatus is
>> that between these two limits (1/25th and 1/20th of a second).
>>
>>This is taken from the epee section of "ANNEXE B TO THE MATERIAL
>>RULES", which can be found at:
>>
>> <http://www.leonpaul.com/download/armoury.htm>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Regarding the 10ms: I spoke with my teacher today, and he said that we can
> asume that all hits last more then 10ms, so I can just ignore that when I
> write the program. I find it strange that he put it there in the first place
> if we can ignore it, but hey that's my teacher in a nutshell.
>
> Jimi
>
>

[Jimi Hullegård]

Jonathan Jefferies wrote:
> Jimi,
> You haven't been very specific as to what your program will be doing.
> Will it be a scoring machine, connected to the weapons and registering
> the hits or something that will take input - such as a button or
> other signal from another machine?

I didn't specify that since I didn't know (and still don't). This is a
school task in a digital technology class, and the program will be
programmed into a programmable circuit.

Jimi

[Fencerbill]

It may help to sort out some of these questions to remember that the very first
scoring machines used relays.

Which is probably why double hits were ever allowed in Epee.

Bill Hall

[Harold Buck]

In article <20031203233028.01893.00001972@mb-m22.aol.com>,
fencerbill@aol.com (Fencerbill) wrote:

> It may help to sort out some of these questions to remember that the very
> first
> scoring machines used relays.
>


But the relay format for team events wasn't introduced until, what,
sometime in the past 10 years?

:-)

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[Miguel Carrion]

In article <20031203233028.01893.00001972@mb-m22.aol.com>,
Fencerbill <fencerbill@aol.com> wrote:
>
>It may help to sort out some of these questions to remember that the
>very first scoring machines used relays.
>
>Which is probably why double hits were ever allowed in Epee.

I was under the impression that double hits were allowed in Epee
because it is historically descended from a duelling weapon, and that
the 40/50 ms rule has to do with human reaction time and not with
electronics.

Regards,

Miguel

[Trim Plus Expert]

Your impression wasn't right, and now FIE plan to remove the double hits
(Epee would gain a lot on this)
Yeah they can now know who hit first at 1/1000000 sec and the next scoring
machines would use that value. About human reaction time.
To a signal light by pressing a button : 200 to 400 ms
A riposte : 400 to 600 ms ( to score )
A lunge : a good one at 1200 ms
Bests averages reactions time about : 165 ms
You should try a reflex test on net its fun. Search Reflex tester or test.
And throw in your results.

Agleos Arkeneight

> I was under the impression that double hits were allowed in Epee
> because it is historically descended from a duelling weapon, and that
> the 40/50 ms rule has to do with human reaction time and not with
> electronics.
>
> Regards,
>
> Miguel
>

[Amy & Joseph Kormann]

Trim Plus Expert wrote:

>To a signal light by pressing a button : 200 to 400 ms
>A riposte : 400 to 600 ms ( to score )
>A lunge : a good one at 1200 ms
>Bests averages reactions time about : 165 ms
>You should try a reflex test on net its fun. Search Reflex tester or test.
>And throw in your results.
>
>
Intersection light turning from red to green, variable. Front car:
100000 ms. 3rd car back: 100ms.

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

[Harold Buck]

In article <J0qCb.1923$Af1.25868@news20.bellglobal.com>,
"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote:

> Your impression wasn't right, and now FIE plan to remove the double hits
> (Epee would gain a lot on this)
> Yeah they can now know who hit first at 1/1000000 sec and the next scoring
> machines would use that value.

If true, this is one of the sillier things I've heard of in recent
times. Of course, while it's certainly possible that they can cheaply
produce equipment that can determine which circuit was completed first
to within a microsecond, whether or not it makes sense to do so is
another question.

In swimming, they've long had the ability to take the timing to a third
decimal place, but they haven't done so. The explanation I've heard is
that at the speeds they swim, someone could gain 1/1000th of a second
because their lane is a little shorter than someone else's.

If you award the touch to fencer A because fencer A hit a microsecond
before fencer B, you might as well let the scoring machine register the
double light as it does now and then flip a coin to see who gets the
touch. They already have a coin handy in epee (and foil) anyway for
bouts tied at the end of regulation time. [There may even be a saber
referee or two who still has a coin from the days of priority.]


--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[John Hasler]

Amy and Joseph Kormann writes:
> You should try a reflex test on net its fun.

And useless.
--
John Hasler
john@dhh.gt.org (John Hasler)
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, WI

[Trim Plus Expert]

However,
This is silly if you can't menage to get a single light on. This gonna be
only encouraging not to hit first but to make sure that you don't get
touched at all. Just gonna improve defence on epee and get fencers who only
counter-thrust for defence (for a chance of making a double hit)spend more
time thinking of a proper defence. Since the counter land sometimes faster
than an attack, but more often not. A double kill is a silly thing, and its
easy to get a double hit. However not getting hit should be the first thing
you think in a fencing bout. Deal with their blades then deal with their
defence then get a easy hit. That IS fencing. So to me it make sense that if
i have hard time getting both light on when i am defending, id rather use
more parry so my opponent don't turn a single light on !

Agleos Arkeneight


> If true, this is one of the sillier things I've heard of in recent
> times. Of course, while it's certainly possible that they can cheaply
> produce equipment that can determine which circuit was completed first
> to within a microsecond, whether or not it makes sense to do so is
> another question.
>

[Byrocat]

Well, I'm going to wade in, and speaking as a old-timer (started fencing
thitty years ago this year)....

Unless the rules have fundamentally changed, epee is a pure-time game --
there is NO order of combat as would happen with foil or sabre. It's
grounded in it being a DUEL not a competion. Also, it's one reason why the
total body counts (from bottom of shoe to top of head -- don't laugh but
I've seen a bout that included BOTH hits, and on the same guy! -- Sloppy bit
lunge and then tried for a foil-style bind while on full lunge)

"Double-hit" is two hits that arrive within the same time-frame (the 40
millisec window started by the first hit.)



"Jimi Hullegård" <ask-for-real-email@nothotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqiflt$23hdgt$1@ID-91775.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Hi
>
> I have a question about the fencing rules, and if someone could help me it
> would be great.
>
> I have a task to write a simple fencing computer program, that should be
> able to show points for hits. But there is one thing I find unclear. Here
is
> the part of the instructions that I don't understand (translated from
> Swedish):
> "A hit is valid if it lasts more then 10ms and occurs before or within
40ms
> after the other person got a hit (double hit)."
>
> When I searched for "double hit" I found this site:
> http://www.dictionaryofgambling.com/...rms/fencing/d/
> and it says "In epee, two attacks that arrive within 40-50 ms of each
> other." But what does that mean exactly? Can the first attack be from
player
> A and the second attack from player B, as long as the second attack occurs
> within 40-50ms of the first attack? It doesn't say anything if the two
> attacks have to be from the same player or both players or if it doesn't
> matter.
>
> In the following, I simply asume that the double hit can be an attack and
a
> counterattack
>
> And also, regarding the 40 milliseconds, between what events does the time
> have to he at most 40ms?
> Consider the following senario:
>
> Time Event
> 100ms Player A starts a hit
> 110ms The hit of player A becomes valid
> 120ms Player A ends the hit
> 140ms Player B starts a hit
> 150ms 10ms from the start of the hit of player B
> 160ms Player B ends the hit
>
>
> The instructions says that the hit of player B is valid if it occurs
within
> 40ms after the hit of player A happend. But should I measure the time
> between 100ms and 140ms, 100ms and 150ms, 110ms and 140ms, 110ms and
150ms,
> 120ms and 140ms or 120ms and 150ms?
>
> Hope you understand the question.
> And thanks in advance for any input!
>
> /Jimi
>
>

[Tim Schofield]

In article
<no_one_knows-4EF7DE.21194712122003@comcast.ash.giganews.com>, Harold
Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> writes
>In article <J0qCb.1923$Af1.25868@news20.bellglobal.com>,
> "Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote:
>
>> Your impression wasn't right, and now FIE plan to remove the double hits
>> (Epee would gain a lot on this)
>> Yeah they can now know who hit first at 1/1000000 sec and the next scoring
>> machines would use that value.
>
>If true, this is one of the sillier things I've heard of in recent
>times. Of course, while it's certainly possible that they can cheaply
>produce equipment that can determine which circuit was completed first
>to within a microsecond, whether or not it makes sense to do so is
>another question.

I'd share your concern about whether it makes sense, but I'd also
question whether the equipment will work that reliably. In "theory" the
circuit goes from infinity to zero ohms instantaneously; but the
reality's different, and quite a lot of the uncertainty is in the spools
not the epee. Won't the new rule result in a situation where, on
typical club pistes, there's an advantage to being on one end of the
piste (the one with the spool that's lower resistance and has fewer
millisecond-duration glitches)?

[Snip remaining excellent discussion]

Tim S.