The Marxism Thread

[Charred_Phoenix]

From now on, this is the exclusive(I will not be continuing such arguments in other threads) thread for debate on these issues:

1. Marxism's morality
2. Historical information regarding Lenin, Fidel, Che and Trotsky (I consider Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot to be irrelevant, unless you want to discuss them in the context of Che Guevara [he believed both Mao and Stalin to be heroes])

Flames from either side should and will be ignored.(and no, you can't get away with it by posting one flame and one valid argument)

I feel it most appropriate for the opposition to begin this debate.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Charred_Phoenix
2. Historical information regarding Lenin, Fidel, Che and Trotsky (I consider Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot to be irrelevant,

Just to get things going, clear up an inconsistency for us: Why are Stalin and Pol Pot irrelevant to Communism, but Hitler, as you impled in the other thread, is somehow relevant to capitalism?

[40Saberthieves]

Marxism has no morality.

It is the height of immorality to take from those that can, and give to those that wont.

Marxism is robbery-at-large

[Charred_Phoenix]

Just to get things going, clear up an inconsistency for us: Why are Stalin and Pol Pot irrelevant to Communism, but Hitler, as you impled in the other thread, is somehow relevant to capitalism?

My apologies if I wasn't entirely clear on this matter. Hitler is also irrelevant to capitalism, I only referred to the Nazis when someone said somehting like "prove that communism has always been good for the people [even under Stalin or Pol Pot]".

[Aestro]

Marxism is a completely moral basis for government/economical structure. Marxism because immoral when you tie it into pretty much any form of widescale application of it.

The main problem with Marxism is that it has not occured as intended - in which the worker class rises and seizes control from the ruling class, gradually shifting into a utopian balance of power with no need for rulers. Since communism has been applied from the top-down, it becomes a dictatorship rather than commune. This defies the very principles of Marx's beliefs, and as such communism does not truly exist and cannot exist until mankind becomes a morally perfect being. In the meantime, people are greedy and power-hungry and democratic socialism is perhaps the best we can do.

[40Saberthieves]

I suggest you read Atlas Shrugged.

[Charred_Phoenix]

It is the height of immorality to take from those that can, and give to those that wont.

Are you saying those that won't can? (in which case your statement defeats itself) Regardless, that's not Marxism: From each according to ability, to each according to need.

[Charred_Phoenix]

The main problem with Marxism is that it has not occured as intended - in which the worker class rises and seizes control from the ruling class, gradually shifting into a utopian balance of power with no need for rulers. Since communism has been applied from the top-down, it becomes a dictatorship rather than commune. This defies the very principles of Marx's beliefs, and as such communism does not truly exist and cannot exist until mankind becomes a morally perfect being. In the meantime, people are greedy and power-hungry and democratic socialism is perhaps the best we can do.

It's meant to temporarily become a dictatorship if you seize power by military means... (actually this depends on other factors too) Dictatorship of the Proletariat is discussed in the Communist Manifesto. It's available at marxists.org, if you feel like reading it. It's also not necessary for people to be morally perfect. The things in society that need to change are addressed in the cultural revolution.

[40Saberthieves]

Originally posted by Charred_Phoenix
Are you saying those that won't can? (in which case your statement defeats itself) Regardless, that's not Marxism: From each according to ability, to each according to need.

Which is thievery disguised as charity.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish, and he will eat everyday.


Many that wont, can. Those that cant, I feel sorry for, but they dont help society in any way.


"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

Who decides need? Society itself? That is not feasible, not to mention not just.

You cannot have 200 million people, each decided what the other people need.

Justice:
In the 1800s, the majority of america would have said that the needs of blacks is to be ruled by whites.

In 1940, the germans would have said that the needs of the jews were limited to being sent to god.

[40Saberthieves]

Phoenix- I invite you to www.utopia-politics.com

We dont really have any marxists.

The rest of you are also invited.

[Charred_Phoenix]

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish, and he will eat everyday.

This was one of Marx's favourite quotes. That's not incompatible with the other; education is also a need.

Many that wont, can.

People who do nothing in a Marxist society are basically criminals, and will be treated as such.

Those that cant, I feel sorry for, but they dont help society in any way.

That's where the Nazi ideology comes from. Hitler just went one step further, instead of leaving them to die, he shot them.

Who decides need? Society itself? That is not feasible, not to mention not just.

The government, through democratic processes.

Justice:
In the 1800s, the majority of america would have said that the needs of blacks is to be ruled by whites.

In 1940, the germans would have said that the needs of the jews were limited to being sent to god.

This is where democracy comes in.

Phoenix- I invite you to www.utopia-politics.com

We dont really have any marxists.

The rest of you are also invited.

Thanks for the invitation.

[40Saberthieves]

"That's where the Nazi ideology comes from. Hitler just went one step further, instead of leaving them to die, he shot them."

Are you referring to the "cleansing" of cripples? Most cripples can work. Not all work is physical labor. Not all work requires intellgence.


I think we can ALL agree that hitler was a madman.



Marxism also has no way to stop the oppresion of the minority by the majority.

You are saying in other words: that marxism = direct democracy, right?

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Charred_Phoenix
My apologies if I wasn't entirely clear on this matter. Hitler is also irrelevant to capitalism, I only referred to the Nazis when someone said somehting like "prove that communism has always been good for the people [even under Stalin or Pol Pot]".

Thanks.

[Charred_Phoenix]

Are you referring to the "cleansing" of cripples? Most cripples can work. Not all work is physical labor. Not all work requires intellgence.

But you would agree with it for those who can't work?

I think we can ALL agree that hitler was a madman.

I don't think he was mad. He was clearly very intelligent, and from one perspective, his conclusions are very logical. It just also happens that he was an absolute prick.

Marxism also has no way to stop the oppression of the minority by the majority.

Of course not, it's not possible to completely stop that. Marxism is designed to stop the oppression of the proletariat majority by the bourgeois minority.

You are saying in other words: that marxism = direct democracy, right?

No! Dear god, no! I'm saying there would be policies to decide what is needed. The easiest way is to make the majority of things free. For example, in the U.S.S.R. university and health care were free.

Thanks.

No problem. And sorry for my generally awful conduct in the other thread, I really wasn't in the mood for receiving flames.

[Inquartata]

Two Cows

DEMOCRAT
You have two cows.
Your neighbor has none.
You feel guilty for being successful. Barbara Streisand sings for you.

REPUBLICAN
You have two cows.
Your neighbor has none.
So?

SOCIALIST You have two cows.
The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor.
You form a cooperative to tell him how to manage his cow.

COMMUNIST
You have two cows.
The government seizes both and provides you with milk.
You wait in line for hours to get it.
It is expensive and sour.

CAPITALISM, AMERICAN STYLE
You have two cows.
You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows.

DEMOCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE
You have two cows.
The government taxes you to the point you have to sell both to support a man in a foreign country who has only one cow, which was a gift from your government.

BUREAUCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE
You have two cows.
The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, and then pours the milk down the drain.

AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, lease it back to yourself and do an IPO on the 2nd one.
You force the two cows to produce the milk of four cows.
You are surprised when one cow drops dead.
You spin an announcement to the analysts stating you have down sized and are reducing expenses.
Your stock goes up.

FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike because you want three cows.
You go to lunch and drink wine.
Life is good.

JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk.
They learn to travel on unbelievably crowded trains.
Most are at the top of their class at cow school.

GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You engineer them so they are all blond, drink lots of beer, give excellent quality milk, and run a hundred miles an hour.
Unfortunately they also demand 13 weeks of vacation per year.

ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows but you don`t know where they are.
While ambling around, you see a beautiful woman.
You break for lunch.
Life is good.

RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have some vodka.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You have some more vodka.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
The Mafia shows up and takes over however many cows you really have.

TALIBAN CORPORATION
You have all the cows in Afghanistan, which are two.
You don`t milk them because you cannot touch any creature`s private parts.
Then you kill them and claim a US bomb blew them up while they were in the hospital.

IRAQI CORPORATION
You have two cows.
They go into hiding.
They send radio tapes of their mooing.

POLISH CORPORATION
You have two bulls.
Employees are regularly maimed and killed attempting to milk them.

FLORIDA CORPORATION
You have a black cow and a brown cow.
Everyone votes for the best looking one.
Some of the people who like the brown one best, vote for the black one.
Some people vote for both.
Some people vote for neither.
Some people can`t figure out how to vote at all.
Finally, a bunch of guys from out-of-state tell you which is the best looking cow.

CALIFORNIAN
You have a cow and a bull.
The bull is depressed.
It has spent its life living a lie.
It goes away for two weeks.
It comes back after a taxpayer-paid sex-change operation.
You now have two cows.
One makes milk; the other doesn`t.
You try to sell the transgender cow.
Its lawyer sues you for discrimination.
You lose in court.
You sell the milk-generating cow to pay the damages.
You now have one rich, transgender, non-milk-producing cow.
You change your business to beef. PETA pickets your farm.
Jesse Jackson makes a speech in your driveway.
Cruz Bustamante calls for higher farm taxes to help "working cows".
Hillary Clinton calls for the nationalization of 1/7 of your farm "for the children".
Gray Davis signs a law giving your farm to Mexico.
The L.A. Times quotes five anonymous cows claiming you groped their teats.
You declare bankruptcy and shut down all operations.
The cow starves to death.
The L.A. Times` analysis shows your business failure is Bush`s fault.

[40Saberthieves]

Originally posted by Charred_Phoenix
But you would agree with it for those who can't work?

Everyone can work

[Charred_Phoenix]

Everyone can work

Obviously everyon can do SOME sort of work, but we aren't all equally able. Why should the less able man who works just as hard be payed less?

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Because he does not priduce as much. Hard work is not the only priciple that matters in the work force. If someone has an IQ of 180 they have to do less work than someone with 120 to figurea out the same math rpblem. Should the man with an IQ of 180 be penalized for being too smart??? no. So, Work+Natural ability=output which in the real world is what matters.

[40Saberthieves]

Originally posted by Charred_Phoenix
Obviously everyon can do SOME sort of work, but we aren't all equally able. Why should the less able man who works just as hard be payed less?

What do you define as working hard?

And working hard is less important than working well.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Exactly.