Fencing Workouts for legs

[jonathangreen]

Hi all,

Once again I need some advice.

I need to get in shape for a major tournament and my fencing coach says my legs are weak, particularly the left, which means my lunge is not as explosive as it should be.

I just bought the Ultimate Guide to Weight Training for Fencing but I'm not all that convinced it's going to work.

Are there some published guidlines or some chart I can get hold of which I can use to put myself through the paces.

Verbal advice is fine but a good solid regime that i can follow and tick off stuff from would be great too,

For any help I would, once again, be indebted.

Best,


Jonathan

[C.J.]

In fencing, you want to be able to move your feet fast, and still look good; too much explosive muscles kills both.

My solution, one word: Dance Dance Revolution!!

That's right! That game is mad fun and improves your footwork and makes your legs look shapely. I absolutely love it. And did I say it is fun? Forget other traininng stuff, they'll only make your legs look bulky and unpleasant. We don't want that, do we? And ever since I started playing this game, I was able to beat, and run people up and down, left to right on the strip with my swift, agile, lightning fast, superior footwork. And did I tell you it is cheap, too? For only 39.99 U.S. dollars, you will be able to achieve your deluded fencing dreams -- in no time. That's right, only 39.99. That's, like, not even half of the cost of my fake FIE Jacket.

Wait no further. Call today for your copy!!

[westcoastsabre]

A) that book isn't all that specific to fencing
B) Your best bet is lots of running, lunges, and leg weights

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Squats

Lunges

Leaps( I dunno what people call these, u bend your lunging leg, lower towards teh ground for 3 seconds then hop forward)
Stairs(Run up and down stairs)

Running(A lot of short sprints followed by periods of rest, nt as much long distance)

Knee Drops(Drop one knee in front and land on it so both knees are at a ninety degree angle, then take the back leg and do the same thing)

And then just a lot of footwork.

[danp]

Originally posted by jonathangreen
Verbal advice is fine but a good solid regime that i can follow and tick off stuff from would be great too,

Hi Jonathan,

If possible, research and join (or simply do a few consultations with) a high quality gym and a personal trainer. It's not all that expensive, and the dividends are huge. All the squats, leg and calf raises in the world won't help you if you have bad form, overtrain or injure yourself. There's almost no way to read about it - have someone help you do these right and the effects can last a lifetime.

I've just recently been targeting fencing specific workouts instead of cycling, and these are the tips that have helped me:

1_ Stretching. Fencing is hell on joints and ligaments. Learn how to stretch the muscles surrounding your IT band (around the knee area), your back, and all of the major leg muscles... Calves, hamstrings, glutes, quads. Good flexibility is key. Yoga wouldn't be bad either.

2_ Jumping rope strengthens ankles and calves. It also helps balance, timing and cardiovascular strength.

3_ Cycling is great for quads and cardio, but don't overdo it.

4_ Low weight lunges. This is where you lunge forward whilst holding relatively lower weight to your sides. A trainer can explain better. This builds muscle strength for your forward leg while lunging.

5_ Abductors and thighs. This is where you sit on a machine (looks like stirups) and work the muscles on the inner and outer thigh. Fencing really stresses these.

6_ Back press. You need a strong and flexible lower back. Have a trainer show you how to do light back lifts.

7_ Run stairs. This is killer for the glutes and quads. Don't overdo the running. I prefer low impact cardio like swimming or cycling, since fencing is fairly high impact in itself. But slow, steep stair runs will really build strength.

Various suggestions:

* I'd stay away from dead lifts or squats with free weights or a rack. Use the Nautilus machines for this instead, as they give better support. It's also hell on the back and a major source of unnecessary injury. It looks cool, but is rarely done properly.

* To build endurance and strength without sacrificing flexibility, use lower weights and do more reps. For example, do 40-50 abductors @ 40 pounds instead of the usual 10-12 at 80+. Good form and light weight is more effective than big weight.

* Give yourself enough time to recover the day after a leg workout. If you go to the gym on monday, don't plan to be fence too hard on tuesday. Muscle takes time to build.. give yourself time to get stronger.

* Get more low fat protein in your diet. Lean chicken, soy, fish, it's important.

* Depending on your age, Glucosamine and Chondroitin supplements can really help with recovery and long term joint health.

Good luck,
-Dan

[C.J.]

Hey, Jonathan, what tournament are you going to?

[jonathangreen]

Dan,

Thanks so much indeed- that's a fantastic rundown of advice.

I live in New York City, Manhattan.

Do you know a good trainer I can turn to for some workouts twice a week.

To the other poster - yes that book wasn't all that specific to fencing at all.

In fact it all seems a bit of a rip off and I see the author has done twenty other books all twisted slightly to other sports.

I just need a twice a week leg workout and maybe upper body too.

J

[danp]

Originally posted by jonathangreen
I live in New York City, Manhattan.

Do you know a good trainer I can turn to for some workouts twice a week.

I'm on the West Coast, but there are referral services. Here's one I found on the net:

www.personaltrainersnyc.com

Talk to your trainer on the phone before you meet with them. Tell him/her what your goals are, and then ask them what kind of specific qualifications they have that could apply to your specific situation. Ask them for an idea of what you'll be doing with them on your first visit. No need to be shy, it's your cash :-)

My guy actually went on the web and learned about fencing, and then came to our first session with a bunch of great info. That's the spirit! Run your trainer through some footwork so they know what you'll be doing.

It's hard to find a trainer who knows fencing in particular, but someone who's trained tennis players, endurance athletes, runners etc would be great. Stay away from the huge muscled out types who can't scratch their own butts. That'll help if you want to lift a volkswagen, but bad for fencing.

Hope this helped,
-Dan

[mtarascio]

In NYC I'd contact Jana Angelakis who owns PEx Personal Fitness Inc. Jana was on the US Olympic Team in 1980 and 1984. PEx is located at 924 Broadway @ 21st St. Telephone number is 212-254-1915. Webpage is www.pexinc.com

[jonathangreen]

mat,

thanks so much - brilliant information.

that just happens to be round the corner from my office and if she's an ex fencer then all the better!

thanks for a cracking lead...

J

[mtarascio]

Jana was on the Olympic Team in Women's foil.

[scarlet_woman156k]

Jonathan,
My back leg is/was significantly weaker than my front leg. When I did a strength test when I was involved in rehab for my lower back and back knee, I found that my front leg was 25% stronger than the back leg. When measuring my thighs, my front leg was one inch larger.

To strengthen both legs, and even out the difference, my physical therapists helped develop a plan I've now done over the last 5 months which has increased the strength of my back leg (and now it is about 1/2 to 1/4 inch smaller than the front, and has made the leg about 15% stronger, with only a 10% difference between front and back). This is my strength workout of the weaker leg and my legs in general:

* "butt blaster" nautilus machine works the quads, hamstrings, etc. (it's the machine that you basically are on all fours and you are taking one leg and pushing it upward): do three sets on each leg of 10 reps, do an extra set of 10 reps on the weaker leg. weight lifted should stay the same for each leg.
* stair stepper, or just a regular stair that is about 6 inches high: with your weak leg, do 30 reps. If you want to do both legs, be sure to do an extra set for the weaker leg.
* forget the name of it, but it's those sqishy "half circle" blue contraptions you find at gyms you stand on: I stand on it w/both feet and bend at the knees and come back up, 30 reps.
* stand on the weaker foot for two minutes throwing a weighted ball or a regular ball up in the air. Point of it is to get the leg to have to work to balance itself and work muscles it might not normally use while grounded.
* use any of the nautilus machines to work the quads and hamstrings: always do one extra set on the weaker leg. weight lifted should stay the same for each leg.

I also do adductors and abductors exercises, want to get everything strong! The above was just specific to trying and getting the weaker leg up to snuff, which has also eliminated my back knee problems almost completely.

Hope this helps!

[lfortier]

I can help!!!

I've been using The Ultimate Guide to Weight Lifting for Fencing for about a month and half- It does work, but takes time to build up your muscles. So far, I feel a little stronger, but for the most part, the muscle fatigue in generall- especially in my shoulders and weapon arm have been greatly reduced. In addition to that, running helps. Also, I'm pretty sure that there are some charts in the back of the book to record your progress, and the program regimen is towards the front. The book lists a website and e-mail address so you can talk with trainers on anything weightlifting or revolving around the book-whatever you need, they'll be happy to answer questions.
Hope I helped!

[jonathangreen]

I've always wanted to write to a scarlet woman...

Anyway, thanks for that, very useful indeed. Fencing is indeed an asymetric sport but that rear leg to push off on the lunge seems to be important.

Those exercises sound great.

Thanks too lfortier, I'm pleased I haven't wasted $20. I'm keen to see if any of that works... I'll give it a shot.

J

www.jonathan-green.com

[CarlKnoch]

Unless this tournament he's going to is a year away, he won't solve the problem of weak legs in time for the competition.

Strengthening any part of the body takes time. If you don't have the required time, then you will still have weak legs when the tourney starts, but you can at least acknowledge that and do things that help them out during fencing.

1. Sit down when not fencing and stretch lightly between every bout.

2. Drink a lot of water during the tourney. Dehydration can lead to premature muscle fatigue.

3. If you bounce at all while fencing, stop it. I used to bounce while fencing and it would tire me out fast.

4. RELAX when on the strip. If you are tensed up during your bouts you will ear yourself out without even moving.

Also try to help yourself out by not fencing the day before and getting a good nights sleep.

[jspierre]

Jonathan, this is a totally impotant topic, and one which doesn't get enough discussion on the website, or even with other fencers, at least around my club. The challenge is to achieve, strong, explosive, flexible and *balanced* leg muscles. Definitely have to hit the gym to achieve this, despite what some guys say (ie., 'all you need to do is fence, do footwork, and the development will come').

The goal to me has been to be able to float on the strip like world class guys can do, espy in foil and epee (saber footwork to me involves a lot more leaping and bounding).

Don't forget the calf muscles, which are key to getting the control in the short footwork, and to power-off of in lunges and in a fleche.

Here's what I do:

- some kind of regular plytometric work, including sprints on a tread mill, jump rope work and/or stair trainers (set to intervals, where I try and simulate the fractured time demands on heart rate and effort on the strip).

- squats with dumbbells. I do 3x15 sets with up to 15-20lbs in each hand. If you can't do these, you'll never be able to stay in a classical enguard stance on the strip, no less a stable, explosive enguard stance.

- leg lunges (not fencing lunges), both legs, 3x15 sets, also with 12-15lb dumbbells in each hand. I do them in an extended stance and do short up's and down's stressing the upper hamstring, which really requires development for fast, stable recoveries from a lunge.

- hamstring and quad curls on a machine, 3x15 sets, and I now regularly do at least 2x15 sets for just left leg on the quad curls. I set the weights heavy off-season, and 20-40% lighter during the season.

- abductors on a machine, 3x18 sets at about 90lbs, which is somewhere between where I would begin to actually build the muscle versus maintain it. I avoid adductor machines and weight work as (a) I think I get this muscle as a secondary muscle when I work the a/m drills, and (b) this is a very bad muscle to get very tight for fencing (hard to stretch and can skew your lunge mechanics when tight).

- calf raises on a machine, off-season, and in-season, either freely standing 3x25 sets or I incorporate into my squats by going to my tip-toes on the upcycle in the squat. I also get some calf work done on the plytometrics work as on a treadmill, you can incline the machine, and in that way, put stress on you calf, especially the front part, which is hard to exercise.

On top of this, you must, stretch, stretch, stretch, and let's not forget footwork. In fact, if we all had time (not to mention money), a regular fencing footwork class would be great, and does really help stregthen legs in the right ways (though never enough in my opinion).

Fencing to me is 90% in the legs. The Chinese think that tai-chi and other martial arts are the same, that's why they start by teaching you the "ma dun", or horse stance in tai-chi, to get your center of gravity, strengh in you base, and balance.

My 2 cents.

[Agent_V]

You've got to be kidding... squats with 15-20 pound dumbells? That won't build an ounce of muscle. I mean, even a decent in-shape girl should be able to bar squat 100lbs (after learning the proper technique of course). I'm a small guy but I'm doing 165lbs (x5). One of the track girls at my school does 245lbs (yeah, I know, it's scary), and our team captain is under 180lbs and he can squat over 300lbs.
I recently was reading the offical USA track and field training manual, and for sprinters they were recommending that before any really serious training the athelete should be squatting 1.5-2 times his/her weight.

However, there are two really important things to keep in mind with squats (and for pretty much all weight training also):
First, you have to learn the proper technique. That doesn't mean just doing it until it feels ok, it means finding a trainer who will show you the exact proper technique. If you do squats incorrectly, you will strain your back or blow out a knee once you start loading on the weight.

Second, you need to have a someone who will spot you while doing them. High reps with low weight does not build muscle, it just tones it. Unless you're entering the next beauty pagent, you need to be doing your absolute max. Muscle fatigue, the state at which you cannot do a single rep more at the same weight, even after a 30 second rest is what you need to be shooting for. Ideally, the weight should be such that muscle fatigue is attained in 4-6 reps, but in practice it usually is attained in about 7-10. So, the point of the spotter is so that you can put on the max weight possible, and not accidentally fall on your a$$ during the last couple reps.

Ok, have fun squatting!

-Alexander

[Peach]

I prefer the leg press machines to doing squats, because at the weights I can lift easily with my legs, the bar (even with padding) is pretty brutal on my neck and back, and a misstep could cause problems for my knees. If you have access to machines in a gym, I recommend them for legs especially. It's too easy to do free weights wrong.

Also, the number of reps, the amount of weight, and a number of other factors appear to differ according to which school of belief you go with. The 15-pound weight squats are absolutely appropriate if you subscribe to the school that you should train in a manner as similar to the conditions of your sport as possible. The high-intensity (4-6 reps to failure) lifting will build muscle but some schools subscribe to the belief that more reps at lighter weights are better at building strength, and less likely to cause injury.

BTW, the high reps, low weights do not just tone muscle--they do build strength. However, they don't tend to produce bulk.

For myself, I do high reps (when I can do 15, I move up), one set, twice a week, full body, year round.

[Agent_V]

Ok, who is producing the greater power output in the legs: someone who is squatting with 300 pounds on their shoulders, or someone with only 40 pounds?
Now, do you seriously believe that training with the 20 pound dumbells will allow you to one day pick up 300 pounds and be able to squat that?
No, I didn't think so. If you want to produce that kind of output from the legs, you have to bulk them up. Anyone seen Jon Tiompkin's legs recently? Or any of the really top european fencers?
Now, I'm not saying that the school which believes that one should train as closely as possible to the conditions of one's sport is wrong. As far as I know, the russian national team does minimal heavy lifting if any - however, the amount of footwork and the sheer intensity at which they do it is just out of this world. That's how they build their strength. However, the fencing team at my school does not emphasize that kind of footwork training at all, and with the classes I'm taking here I cannot find the time nor the self-motivation to do that training alone, so instead I'm mostly relying on high weights to gain strength.

My point was that 15lb dumbell squats is going to do jack compared to high weight low reps squats. If you want to go with the other school of thought on this matter, that's great, but doing an extra 30 unweighted lunges would probably give better results faster than the 15lb squats.

-Alexander

[danp]

Originally posted by Agent_V

My point was that 15lb dumbell squats is going to do jack compared to high weight low reps squats.
-Alexander

Hi Alexander,

What do you base your comments on?

I'm actually curious - all of the books I've read and trainers I've worked with say that big weight (300 lbs squats @ 12-15 reps for instance) builds bulk and decreases flexibility, whereas low weight and high reps (100-150 lbs @ 30-40 reps for instance) builds endurance and strength without the sacrifice. Also, high reps/low weight doesn't break down muscle fiber as drastically, and can be done in the on-season (all season) without needing as much recovery time - one book goes so far as to say that heavy weights are a hinderance during competitive seasons (Joe Friel I think).

It's probably more dynamic than this, and most trainers will periodize workouts to change things up depending on a person's goals... but I looked at the training regimen for runners, cyclists, tennis players, and cross country skiers and they all seem to follow the high rep low weight idea.

...it could be all wrong for fencing?

...plus the original poster had weak legs, so it probably makes sense to start light and work up, if anything?

Of course, when I was 16 I could do pretty much any weight and recover in a day..

By the way: I agree, doing a bunch of lunges and footwork would probably make you stronger than 15 pound leg weights. Unless you only weigh 13 pounds, in which case, go for it ;-)

-Dan