New Qualification Paths to National Events

[rsy]

The USFA has just posted the new qaulification paths to the national events. For the Summer Nationals (but not the the JO's) the percentage of qualifiers has been reduced from the top 30% to the top 25%. I posted the link below. Did the USFA feel that the Summer Nationals were over-attended?

Qualifying Paths

-r

[KShan5[PrFC]]

I dunno why they did it, but it seems like a good idea to me. With the enormous Div II events and Div III, which I think they made top 80% instead of 100%, this is a very good idea.

[Dee EffEll]

They have also dropped the "excluding those who otherwise qualify" language. So, for Div II, you have to be in the top 25% of the DivII qualifier, or finish in the top 25% (min 8) at sectionals. This is going to *greatly* reduce the number of Div II entrants this year. I suspect it will cut it by at least half, at least for my weapon, ME. Div III will aslo be much smaller, since Div III now requires a top 25% finish in that same Div II qualifier, rather than merely just fencing in the qualifier as in years past. Presumably, sectional championships will be dominated by A and B classified fencers, taking the top 8 (or top 25%) spots. They used to not be counted for div II purposes, but not for 2004.

I don't believe there is any requirement for the DivII qualifier to be restricted to C and under, right? If a division has the qualifier as an open tournament, potentially there would be no one that qualifies for div II or div III from that division. And I don't think you exclude the fencer ineleigible for divIII is figuring the top 25% in the div II qualifier, either. If the top 25% are all Cs, that division sends no fencers to div III in that weapon.

But here's one for you. I current hold a C03 classification in epee. If I train hard, and spend a whole lot of money to go to the sectional 2004 championships (they are in Anchorage Alaska this year, so this ain't gonna be cheap) and finish in the top 4 with an appropriately rated tournament, can I still fence div II at nationals? If our sectional championship is popular (and with it being in Anchorage, this is not certain), the ME tournament may be rated "A2." Meaning if I finish in the top 4, I earn a classification of B04 (if we have 2As and 2 Bs in the final 8.) Now, do I have a "classification of 'C', 'D','E', or 'U' at the time [I] qualify?" Suddently I am a B fencer, but this makes me ineligible to fence div II. Remember, the top 8 finish is required to qualify, but if I do *too* well, I'd be ineligible for divII. But I suppose I get a qualification only after the USFA processes the paperwork. And I would have to be careful: if I am unsure, and throw the final bout to be sure I stay a C03, and assure my spot at divII nationals, that could earn me a well-deserved black-card, and no finish is reported. Out again!

Nationals will be *much* smaller this year. I guess this is how the USFA promotes fencing.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Umm I think anyone who is pre-qualified gets excluded form the spots still, at least at cadet JO qualifiers that is how it happened. Secondly, I do believe DIV II qualifiers have to be a C and under tournement, and cannot be an open. And you can fence Div II nationals with a B if you qualify before you had your B.

[Dee EffEll]

Originally posted by KShan5[PrFC]
Umm I think anyone who is pre-qualified gets excluded form the spots still, at least at cadet JO qualifiers that is how it happened.

Not what it says on the web site.

Secondly, I do believe DIV II qualifiers have to be a C and under tournement, and cannot be an open.

I'd believe it, but don't know where it says that in the rulebook (or elsewhere.)

And you can fence Div II nationals with a B if you qualify before you had your B.

Also agreed. But if you get a B at the time you qualify, what then?

[KShan5[PrFC]]

If you enter the tournament a C, and leave it a B, then you still fence at Div II with a B.

[Dee EffEll]

Originally posted by KShan5[PrFC]
If you enter the tournament a C, and leave it a B, then you still fence at Div II with a B.

Again, I'd believe it. Makes sense. Wonder if the USFA agrees, or if it says that in their rulebook (or elsehwere.)

[Rolls]

Yea, the interesting thing is that for Div III it says:

Place in the top 25% (with a minimum of 3) among the total number of "D", "E", or "U" fencers competing in the 2004 Division II Qualifying competition

But there is no likewise disclaimer for Div II. You would think that there would be. Does anyone know if this is a misprint or if you actually would have to be top 25% of the entire tournament (not just those who could qualify for Div II)?

It seems like this would make it much easier to get into Div III than Div II. It would be possible that by getting a 'C' you miss out on any reasonable chance of making the summer nationals.

Rolls.

[Dee EffEll]

Yea, the interesting thing is that for Div III it says:


quote:
Place in the top 25% (with a minimum of 3) among the total number of "D", "E", or "U" fencers competing in the 2004 Division II Qualifying competition

Oh yeah. There it is. Thanks for the correction. So you do exclude the A-Cs.

[Rolls]

Well, that's the thing. For Div III, you exclude the A-C's, but for Div II, it seems that the A's and B's are included.

I'm not completely sure though.

Rolls.

[edew]

In order to fence in the Div II qualifiers, one must be classified as a C, D, E, or unclassified at the time they enter the qualifier.

Then, the top 25%, with a minimum of three qualifiers, will qualify to the Summer Nationals.

There is no specification about what to do with pre-qualifiers.

The Div III qualifiers are those who have a D, E, or unclassified classification, competes in the Div II qualifiers, and finishes among the top 25% of all those with a D, E, or U classification, or is already qualified for Div II. Again, it does not specify what to do with a pre-qualifier.

For example, suppose a D fencer wins the Div II event. His placing first makes him qualified for Div II. Which means he's also qualified for Div III, but under which route, top 25% among the D's E's and U's, or qualified to Div II?

If the former, then he takes over a spot available to one other (possibly) D, E, U fencer. If the latter, another person with a D, E, U could take his Div III spot.

Whatever the case, the requirements are quite stringent and will greatly drop the number of entries to nationals. Hope they make money this year.

[Julie]

Better yet, I hope they don't make money so they'll realize how foolish it is to be so exclusionary.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Edew: In the past, did the rules actually specify what to do with pre-qualified entrants that fenced anyway?

In a number of Divisional/Sectional qualifiers I've been around, they encouraged as many fencers to participate--pre-qual or not--to get the numbers threshold up, so there would be more potential qualifiers. Then, at the end of the event, any pre-qualifiers were dropped from the list, and the other entrants all moved up.

Was this just an unwritten convention, or was it previously spelled out in the rules, but is being disallowed this year?

[lochinvar]

Another immediate consequence I see of these new qualifying paths is that the burden for qualifying Juniors shifts from Sectionals to Divisionals.

Under the new rules, Juniors will qualify to the Nat. Championships by placing in the top 25% of their Divisional Junior qualifier. There is no provision for qualifying Juniors out of Sectionals, as in the past.

In other words, the Divisions will have to add Junior qualifiers to their list of events, a task that was formerly handled by the Sections.

[lochinvar]

Originally posted by Rolls
Well, that's the thing. For Div III, you exclude the A-C's, but for Div II, it seems that the A's and B's are included.

I'm not completely sure though.

Rolls.

It says to participate in Div II you have to have a C classification or lower. B's could participate if they won their B at the qualifier.

A's are still excluded, since Div II qualifiers are, by definition, restricted to C's and lower--meaning that the qualifer could not be an A-qualified event, so no one will be earning an A there.

Come to think of it, that would exclude all the B's also, since you need to have two B's participating to make it a B-qualified tournament...and since B's can't enter, that can't happen.

[mollusk]

Originally posted by lochinvar
Come to think of it, that would exclude all the B's also, since you need to have two B's participating to make it a B-qualified tournament...and since B's can't enter, that can't happen. [/B]

Please let me dream of the day when fencing is so popular that Divisionals might be a B3 event (64 or more, 24 C's and 12 D's or higher, 4 C's in top 8 and 4 (more) D's or higher in top 12).

[swordsen]

They create the summer nationals so that therer will be a big event for people to fence in then decide it is too big Failure to plan for success. I see this as a step backwards.

[lochinvar]

Originally posted by mollusk
Please let me dream of the day when fencing is so popular that Divisionals might be a B3 event (64 or more, 24 C's and 12 D's or higher, 4 C's in top 8 and 4 (more) D's or higher in top 12).

That's a sweet dream, isn't it? Hope it happens...

[oiuyt]

But there is no likewise disclaimer for Div II. You would think that there would be. Does anyone know if this is a misprint or if you actually would have to be top 25% of the entire tournament (not just those who could qualify for Div II)?

The ops manual specifies that Div II qualifiers must be limited to fencers that are eligible for division II (C and below). There can't be any A or B fencers invovled to muck things up. No need to skip over them, they're not in the competition and therefore not in the results list. It's not a misprint, there's no need for such a disclaimer when such people (A's and B's) aren't eligible to compete in the qualifier in the first place.

Earning your classification at the qualifying tournament does not exclude one from the qualified-to event. Earning an A at sectionals (while qualifying for IA, and therefore II and therefore III, after starting the day as a U) does not preclude one from fencing Div IA, II, AND III.

There were 2 reductions made in the number of qualifiers for Div II. The percentage at the divisional qualifier was reduced from 30% to 25%. The "backdoor" method of being one of the top 6 eligible but not already qualified fencers at sectionals was removed. There was also one additional method added. If you qualify for IA and are eligible for II, you've now qualified for II as well. Effectively this restores a portion (but likely not all of) the "backdoor" method that was removed. The major change is in the 30->25% change. There is no way that this is removing half of the qualified fencers in any event.

EDew- in your example he would fill the slot as a D fencer. He has qualified for Div III Nationals, (having been a D at the time of qualification). There is no "slot" to bump down to someone else (afterall he is still filling it, earning the C did NOT mean he wasn't eligible for D3).

The big change was in the requirement that D3 participants have to qualify (other than the warm-body requirement that we previously had). Pretty much every level had a slight reduction in the form of the 30->25% change. How big an effect the D3 change will have is anyone's guess. Do most of the people that bother flying across the country to nationals already place near the top of their local qualifier? We could have absolutely 0% drop-off if that's the case. We could have a 75% reduction if the make-up of local qualifiers exactly matches that of nationals. We could have 100% drop-off if (as is HIGHLY unlikely) the only people that bother going to nationals are those that suck it up locally and want a chance to redeem themselves. The USFA has no numbers to even begin to predict where in that continuum we are. This year is a change things and see what happens year.

One of the viewpoints that was expressed is that a "National Championships" should be a best-of-class type event. There should be some type of requirement of at least relative ability in order to qualify. This is why, until now, Y10/Y12/Y14 events at nationals haven't been "National Championships". They were all open-entry. An interesting note is that a similar move has not been suggested with regards to the veterns events (which still have a "warm-body" qualification requirement).

-B :)

[Peach]

Originally posted by oiuyt
An interesting note is that a similar move has not been suggested with regards to the veterns events (which still have a "warm-body" qualification requirement).

-B

This produces interesting effects in the championships, though competitors do have to have fenced in at least one tournament in order to get there. Since the veterans events DO have a world championships, and teams are at least partially determined by performance in the veteran national championships (though not necessarily, since the NAC Vet points can have more weight), the argument might be made that they are indeed "national championships" for the sake of significance of results if nothing else.

I suspect part of it is simply that we're trying to encourage veteran participation. Once the events get too big, they'll probably require national points on the vets list.