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Thread: Midwestern High School conference, and american grips

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    Midwestern High School conference

    Any news/comments/stories/discussions anyone who either was or is competing in their high school in the midwest would be welcome; i know there's a few people here who are and i'd like to hear any news etc.....
    Last edited by Hyperion1250; 01-15-2004 at 02:13 PM.
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    Senior Member Duelist's Avatar
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    I believe that those grips are banned in competition.

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    Straight Spanish grips are, the spanish OFFSET rests in a very grey area of the rules and has for some time: it is legal in many competitions
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    Senior Member whtouche's Avatar
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    what do you mean by "american pistol grips" ?
    "Their interpretation is, however, refuted most elegantly by your system of radioactive atom + amplifier + charge of gun powder + cat in a box"
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    Think belgian, but more comfortable and with point control
    http://www.triplette.com/sport%20fen...s/american.jpg
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    WJM
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    uh, not a lot to say about the HS fencing you mention, I was a referee at the HS tournament on Nov. 15th. Every weapon had a huge gap between the top 4 and the rest of the field...And those top 4 are all fencers you can run into in the middle rounds of the local USFA events, around C or D level. Then there were the rest, who aren't bad, just don't seem to be greatly motivated. I think I personally knew almost every medalist, and had never seen any of the others before...but they seemed to be having fun, and the tournament was fun to referee, a breath of fresh air from abusing the referee to being the abused. SHS was a nice venue in all respects, I wish they would host USFA events as well!

    It's been many years, but aren't the american grips like "bastard" versions of the older type of russian grip?
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    Senior Member damianip's Avatar
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    I find American grips to be similar to Belgian grips. I have a couple if you're interested in buying 'em cheap.

    They don't lend themselves to angulation, so, IMHO they are pretty useless for épée.

    If you like Belgians, you might like Americans, however, I think German, Viscontis, Russians, and most Zivkovics are better for foil and épée.

    My feeling about the Spanish offset (Cetrulo) is about the same. It's something of a transition grip from French to the "real" orthos. Again, it isn't a great grip for angulation.

    Stick with French or one of the more common orthos. There is a reason that they are more common: they work for more people.

    Paolo
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    Senior Member MyraTrue's Avatar
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    I know that the American grip is supposed to be illegal here (in the Inland Empire div, thus USFA??? ) I didn't know they existed until a fencer recently brought several to club. He's made them out of belgians. They're certainly different... I'd still go with the spanish offest myself.

    Midwest highschool... sorry, can't help much there. College level, yes, but not at highschool. Sorry.

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    Posting Hound oiuyt's Avatar
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    Supposed to be illegal? In what way? Obviously an orthopedic, so there the requirement that it be designed to be held with the thumb no more than 2 cm from the bell. Looks like it fits that requirement to me. There's nothing illegal about the grip pictured. If things are illegal then it's because they violate the rules (pretty much by definition). Find the rule that the grip violates. Inland Empire rules for grips are the same as the USFA rules are the same as the FIE rules. Divisions don't make up their own rules for what grips are and are not legal.

    -B :)
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    Senior Member damianip's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MyraTrue
    I know that the American grip is supposed to be illegal here (in the Inland Empire div, thus USFA??? ) I didn't know they existed until a fencer recently brought several to club. He's made them out of belgians. They're certainly different... I'd still go with the spanish offest myself.

    Midwest highschool... sorry, can't help much there. College level, yes, but not at highschool. Sorry.
    They are not illegal.

    Paolo
    "He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks like rotten mackerel by moonlight." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."

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    Senior Member Wizardly's Avatar
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    I've seen a picture of what was called an American grip that was really a Belgian with the rear finger prong sawed off (which looks like it could violate the grip rules.

    As for topic 1: it looks like the Stevenson Invite has grown. I hate to say it, but I'm rather glad a certain verbose person was absent (and glad it was for happy news).

    What'd you think of it Hyp?

  12. #12
    Senior Member damianip's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Wizardly
    I've seen a picture of what was called an American grip that was really a Belgian with the rear finger prong sawed off (which looks like it could violate the grip rules.

    (SNIP!!!)


    Not illegal.

    Paolo
    "He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks like rotten mackerel by moonlight." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."

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    Wiz, 27th place in men's epee. For the most part it was pretty good, although there was one director that the whole men's sabre team, and anyone on men's foil/epee teams thought should go (Boris i think...). Catholic Memorial Invite tomorrow, (so of course, the new blade i ordered will get her monday)...
    BTW, were you at the stevenson invitational?
    To anyone who's at catholic memorial tomorrow, if you happen to see me, say hi (you'll know by the glove, it's blue suede..... stands out)
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    Senior Member Tomas N's Avatar
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    My take on the Triplette American grip (after using it for several years) is that it is a bigger version of the belgian. I stopped using it because I felt like my hand (which is rather large) was getting lost in the grip, because the grip was too big. I was doing the deathgrip on the American, which obviously isn't a good way to fence. I'd only recommend it to people with very large hands.

    Tomas

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    Senior Member Wizardly's Avatar
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    {smacks damianip}
    {yellow card: insulting my intelligence}

    I know, i saw the picture, and that's not the one I was talking about!

    Yeah Hyp, I was there. I guess that makes me the second worst director at the thing.

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    Senior Member thyme_daniels's Avatar
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    ah i hate midwest high school fencing. i am lucky enough to have escaped its clutches recently, although it still plagues me. it would be nice if 1/4th of the people at the hs tournaments showed up for local usfa tournaments every now and then. i have no idea why coaches do not encourage their students to go to the tournaments. the bouting experience helps greatly. i know there are several hs aged members of the usfa who dont show up to tournaments, like jo qualifiers, because they are lazy bums. ah. slackers. makes a tough situation for us dedicated fencers. come to tournaments!
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    Senior Member MyraTrue's Avatar
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    damianip, the link you posted to triplette does NOT display what *I* am familiar with as an "American" grip. As Wizardly said, it resembles (and often WAS) a belgian with the bottom of the "pistol" taken off (if memory sutis) and I belive that IS illegal.

    My'

    Likewise, I am VERY WELL aware that the Inland Empire div must adhere to USFA, and not the other way around. Perhaps my post was poorly worded. My implication was that if it was illegal in this division, it would be illegal under USFA rules, and thus illegal by the USFA, in any division.
    Last edited by MyraTrue; 11-22-2003 at 01:48 AM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member damianip's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Wizardly
    {smacks damianip}
    {yellow card: insulting my intelligence}

    I know, i saw the picture, and that's not the one I was talking about!

    Yeah Hyp, I was there. I guess that makes me the second worst director at the thing.
    Red card for ignorance! Plus, I can't read your mind to detect what misconceptions might be residing there.

    This is what an American grip looks like. The only two manufacturers of this grip that I know of, Negrini and Triplette, refer to this design as such.

    This, by the way, is the reason that grips are not typically outlawed by name: someone is always going to say:

    "That's not what we call a (insert name here) grip in these here parts!!!"

    Plus, how does one deal (as an official) with a modified grip? This is why we have the oddly written criteria in the rules.

    The real reason for the grip rule is to prevent someone to have both reach and leverage over another grip. The Gardere grip (do you guys need a picture of it?) is the most blatant example of this.

    So the actual question should be:

    "Does this grip confer an unfair advantage?"

    To be honest, an American or Spanish offset do neither. Having tried both, I'd tend to think that (in épée at least) they actually result in a disadvantage. However that's just my opinion, and a grip doesn't win the bout.

    Paolo
    "He is a man of splendid abilities but utterly corrupt. He shines and stinks like rotten mackerel by moonlight." "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."

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    Originally posted by Hyperion1250
    Straight Spanish grips are, the spanish OFFSET rests in a very grey area of the rules and has for some time: it is legal in many competitions
    As i recall the "gray area" lies in the fact that the portion that the fingers rest on is offset. The actual rule , i believe, (i can't find the rule so please forgive me if i put this incorrectly) is that the rear pommel may not be offset. (a picture of one that is illegal due to this is the "gardere" grip http://www.amfence.com/afscat.pdf"

    The cetrulo and the spanish offset get around this by not offsetting the pommell. (there are illustrations of those here as well http://www.amfence.com/afscat.pdf)

    I have a couple of Cetrulos. I like them a lot, although i do not use them exclusively. I have never heard of anyone being hasseled for using one in a tourny.

    Has anyone here encountered that? If so what was the reasoning?

  20. #20
    Senior Member MyraTrue's Avatar
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    *shrug* we had a foilist in the midwest Indiana Div get hassled for a cetrulo at some point when I first came to the womens foil team. It might have been a director with his nose out of joint about something, or without a clear understaning of rules. It might be the sky was blue, or that someone has sneezed in the last 30 seconds. Just because something is or is not illegal does not mean a director cannot let something slide, or make a fuss over it.

    Gardere and the pictured "spanish, modern" would both be illegal because you can pommel them, not just hold them as a pistol grip, I believe...

    Damianip:
    what took a nice ol' bite out of YOU?


    I can't read your mind to detect what misconceptions might be residing there.
    well, gee, isn't it EASIER to read the posts?

    IE: Wizardly's
    I've seen a picture of what was called an American grip that was really a Belgian with the rear finger prong sawed off (which looks like it could violate the grip rules.
    or even my comment, from the first:
    He's made them out of belgians.... it resembles (and... WAS) a belgian with the bottom of the "pistol" taken off (if memory suits) and I belive that IS illegal.
    which I hope would at least indicate it was an altered grip.



    AND might I add, thanks for the link, Dan:

    http://www.amfence.com/afscat.pdf look under foil and epee grips, and tell me what that "standard American" grip they sell looks like? Hmm... looks like an altered belgian. And its called an "American" grip, and looks NOTHING like what Triplette sold as an "American" grip.
    Last edited by MyraTrue; 11-22-2003 at 04:12 PM.

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