[CFML] Introduction and some questions on Regency era fencing

[dhcullinan]

Hi there -- I've just joined, and with your list administrator's
permission I'm going to toss a number of questions your direction.
But first a short bio so you know who you're talking to, including
why I've come to you.

I am an aspiring author (getting closer to publication every day) of
fiction, all of it historical and set in the Regency at this time.
I've always had a somewhat secret love of swords and fencing, but
have never done much with it until suddenly swordplay was popping all
over this book. This was a problem as I really had no idea what they
were doing, let alone if it was accurate. I began researching and
eventually ended up taking a modern fencing introductory course at a
local university to give me a bit of a hands-on feel.

As wonderful as that class has been, it didn't take but a few minutes
to realize its limitations. Their whole goal has been to get us
fencing electronically, and let me tell you how this isn't something
my Regency characters are experiencing! I've done a lot of research
geenrally over the topic -- I have John Clements's "Renaissance
Swordsmanship" in front of me and I've really enjoyed it. (There is
a rapier in the story rediscovered, and I need the hero to know how
to use it.) I've surfed a lot of sites on the web and think I have
some sort of handle on what was going on as far as fencing, but I'd
rather err on the side of too much knowledge than too little. It's
probably inevitable that when published someone will read it and find
a thousand things wrong, but I'd like to have it as clean as I can
make it.

So my situation is this: I have one character teaching another
character to fence. There's a lot more to it than that, but it's the
fencing that's tying me in knots. Add to the fun is that the tutee
is female, which is its own little scandal, but that's all right, my
genre will eat it up. The idea is that the hero, Regency gentleman
who is doing the teaching, spent a good deal of time on the Continent
and possibly in part of the Peninsular War, but I'm trying to stay
out of that if I can because that's even more research and I'm
running out of time. I would love it if he were some sort of electic
student of fencing, that he had been able to learn from some Spanish,
Italian, and French masters. I would happily make him a master
himself, but he's not that old (32), got serious about it when he was
only 16, and I don't know if pursuing the title of fencing master is
the sort of thing English gentelmen would have pursued. The idea is
he didn't spend ALL his roving time learning to fence. He has a lot
of demons in his past and he found the fencing really helped him -- I
don't want to say "sort things out," but fencing helped him deal with
his riotous emotions the same way my brother vented his anger in high
school by playing football. I like the idea of his arriving back in
England with this exotic mix of styles and a bit of mystery of how he
learned it. I don't want him to be the best fencer ever, but I want
it to be easy for the rumor mill to inflate his prowess because it
makes a good story. From what I've read England was not exactly
known for capital fencers, so I thought that wouldn't be to hard.
Also probably made a long trip to the Contient essential.

So things I don't know are what sort of equipment would a gentleman
be using if he were bored in Yorkshire teaching a rather
unconventional young lady to fence? They're immersed in footwork
right now, but I can't decide if he'd insist on a mask when they use
weapons, and if he'd even have one. And I'd think he would wear some
sort of protective garment, but would he make her as well? (When
they were doing drills, he wouldn't be attacking her so much, or
would maybe think he could hold back. Or something.) Also there are
the issues of her skirts. How could he tell her feet were in the
right position? And how much would they encumber her? It's Regency
dress, too, so lunging might prove tricky. Rather narrow skirts.

Dear God, this turned into a ramble. I apologize. I'll stop here
and see where you take me. I'll confess to being starving for
direction, and to not being the most adept researcher in the world.
(You may ask why I am writing historicals, then. A fair question,
one which I'd love an answer to!) Thank God for the internet and
people who send me links or I never would have gotten this far.

Thank you in advance for any scrap of information you are willing to
toss my way.

Heidi Cullinan
hcullinan@iowatelecom.net


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[Ken Mondschein]

>
> As wonderful as that class has been, it didn't take but a few minutes
> to realize its limitations. Their whole goal has been to get us
> fencing electronically, and let me tell you how this isn't something my
> Regency characters are experiencing!

Nope. You need to find a classical salle.

> I've done a lot of research
> geenrally over the topic -- I have John Clements's "Renaissance
> Swordsmanship" in front of me and I've really enjoyed it.

I find that Mr. Clements' work, when viewed in its proper context, makes
excellent kindling.

> (There is a
> rapier in the story rediscovered, and I need the hero to know how to
> use it.)

Historical fence, sorry to say, was not an early 19th-century pursuit, and
rapiers were long out of use by the Regency.

> I would love it if he were some sort of electic
> student of fencing, that he had been able to learn from some Spanish,
> Italian, and French masters.

At that time, the French school predominated, and the Spanish school was
growing much rarer, partially because of the Bourbons in Spain.

> From what I've read England was not exactly
> known for capital fencers, so I thought that wouldn't be to hard.

Pugilism, wrestling, and backswording were better established amongst the
English, but were rather working-class pasttimes. However, there were
schools teaching fencing, especially in London.

> So things I don't know are what sort of equipment would a gentleman be
> using if he were bored in Yorkshire teaching a rather
> unconventional young lady to fence? They're immersed in footwork right
> now, but I can't decide if he'd insist on a mask when they use weapons,
> and if he'd even have one.

Masks were known then. He'd also probably have some sort of jacket or at
least a leather plastron.

> And I'd think he would wear some sort of
> protective garment, but would he make her as well?

Yes. Getting hit in the boobs hurts.

> Also there are
> the issues of her skirts. How could he tell her feet were in the right
> position?

He'd put her in breeches. Or a working-class smock.





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[Bob Lyle]

Welcome, Ms Cullinan,

With the understanding that I am often corrected here:.

The fundamentals of fencing haven't changed very much in the last two
hundred years, so what you learn in an introductory class and what your
heroine will learn in her first weeks is not dis-similar.
Mr. Clements is not widely respected outside of the group he founded. For
rapier, particulaly Italian rapier, read William Wilson's _Art of Defence_.
Spanish rapier is very diufferent and changed hardly at all between
1600-1800. Maestro Ramon Martinez has disseminated this art.
http://www.martinez-destreza.com/

English fencing masters were kind of rare, though not unknown. An English
Gentleman with an interest in swordsmanship, particurarly with a European
background, would likely have a couple of masks and foils (more properly,
fleurets) on hand to practice with.Sir Richard Burton always did "wall
drills" with a foil to sharpen his reflexes after returning from his
explorations.

A computer crash has cost me most of my on-line references, but
http://ejmas.com/jwma/jwmasplash.htm
http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/lsd/

Bob Lyle



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[Zebee Johnstone]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 12:39:17PM -0800, Bob Lyle wrote:
> Mr. Clements is not widely respected outside of the group he founded. For
> rapier, particulaly Italian rapier, read William Wilson's _Art of Defence_.
> Spanish rapier is very diufferent and changed hardly at all between
> 1600-1800. Maestro Ramon Martinez has disseminated this art.
> http://www.martinez-destreza.com/

According to de Bazancourt, he (writing in 1862) found rapier and dagger
fighters in his youth in Italy.

So if the hero spent time in Italy, he may well have found people who
had a very rapier style. de Bazancourt's opponent used his offhand to
fuard when he ddn't have a dagger too, meaning that if the hero just had
a rapier he could know that technique.

If the hero knows how to use a smallsword then he'd find a rapier longer
and heavier than he's used to, and slow to do any fancy foil stuff, but
basics would still work. If knowing how to use one is a plot point,
then that plot point will determine how much you need to know.

Does he fight another rapier? Is it rapier against smallsword? How
experienced is who he fights? The answers to those will make it easier
to give suggestions as to points to emphasise.

For example, if he's fighting with a decent sized rapier against someone
else withthe same and they are both smallsworders, then your man could
make note of the fact his Italian teacher showed him how to move the
bigger weapon when he showed interest, and taught him to move around the
centre of balance, not to try and muscle it with his forearm in a cut.
So he can make use of that to be faster with a wrist cut feint than his
opponent, leading to one of those bloody face cuts that describe so well
and incense villains


> English fencing masters were kind of rare, though not unknown. An English

I believe the usual Regency genre books mention Angelo don't they?

Zebee

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[Sean Hayes]

On Nov 20, 2003, at 11:55 AM, Ken Mondschein wrote:

> Historical fence, sorry to say, was not an early 19th-century pursuit,
> and
> rapiers were long out of use by the Regency.

On Nov 21, 2003, at 11:29 AM, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> According to de Bazancourt, he (writing in 1862) found rapier and
> dagger
> fighters in his youth in Italy.

Not particularly surprising, since the rapier was still in fashion in
many parts of Italy at that time, particularly in the south. If the
weapon of Scorza and Grisetti (1803) is any indication, the southern
weapon had a smaller dish-style hilt (as opposed to a 17th century
swept hilt or a later cup hilt) and the blade was slightly shorter,
being a mere 40 inches instead of the 44 or so of Capo Ferro's day.
Their technique was recognizably descended from the "play" of Giganti,
Capo Ferro, and Fabris, not to mention Marcelli, Pallavicini and later
17th century authors. The Italians weren't calling it a "rapier" at
that point, but then again, they never really called it a "rapier" at
all. They used the word "spada": sword.

On Nov 20, 2003, at 11:55 AM, Ken Mondschein wrote:

>> And I'd think he would wear some sort of
>> protective garment, but would he make her as well?
>
> Yes. Getting hit in the boobs hurts.

But Ken wears extra padding, so he doesn't have this problem. ; )

Best,


Sean Hayes
Maestro d'armi
Northwest Academy of Arms
<http://www.efn.org/~hayes/>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Ken Mondschein]

Sean Hayes wrote:

> Not particularly surprising, since the rapier was still in fashion in
> many parts of Italy at that time, particularly in the south. If the
> weapon of Scorza and Grisetti (1803) is any indication, the southern
> weapon had a smaller dish-style hilt (as opposed to a 17th century
> swept hilt or a later cup hilt) and the blade was slightly shorter,
> being a mere 40 inches instead of the 44 or so of Capo Ferro's day.

This is true, so if your protaganist traveled in Italy, or met an Italian
master, he would be familiar with these princples. He might still find the
rapier rather large.

>> Yes. Getting hit in the boobs hurts.
>
> But Ken wears extra padding, so he doesn't have this problem. ; )

I'm so manly, I FEEL NO PAIN!!!!



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[Bob Lyle]

Or Spain. Angelo has a chapter on defeating the Spanish school, and his
picture looks like a 40" cuphilt rapier.
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/blyle/Angelo/43.png

Bob Lyle
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Mondschein" <editor@corporatemofo.com>
To: <hayes@efn.org>
Cc: <zebee@zip.com.au>; <classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [CFML] Introduction and some questions on Regency era fencing


>
> Sean Hayes wrote:
>
> > Not particularly surprising, since the rapier was still in fashion in
> > many parts of Italy at that time, particularly in the south. If the
> > weapon of Scorza and Grisetti (1803) is any indication, the southern
> > weapon had a smaller dish-style hilt (as opposed to a 17th century
> > swept hilt or a later cup hilt) and the blade was slightly shorter,
> > being a mere 40 inches instead of the 44 or so of Capo Ferro's day.
>
> This is true, so if your protaganist traveled in Italy, or met an Italian
> master, he would be familiar with these princples. He might still find the
> rapier rather large.
>
> >> Yes. Getting hit in the boobs hurts.
> >
> > But Ken wears extra padding, so he doesn't have this problem. ; )
>
> I'm so manly, I FEEL NO PAIN!!!!
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier
blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



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[Bob Lyle]

Yeah, but the Spanish style is especially hard to close with. As Silver
said,
"This is the manner of the Spanish fight. They stand as brave as they can
with their bodies straight upright, narrow spaced, with their feet
continually moving, as if they were in a dance, holding forth their arms and
rapiers very straight against the face or bodies of their enemies, and this
is the only lying to accomplish that kind of fight. And this note, that as
long as any man shall lie in that manner with his arm, and the point of his
rapier straight, it shall be impossible for his adversary to hurt him,
because in that straight holding forth of his arm, which way soever a blow
shall be made against him, by reason that his rapier hilt lies so far before
him"

So to beat a Spanish style rapier you better be good at attacks on the
blade, given the light weight of a smallsword that means binds not beats.

Bob Lyle

----- Original Message -----
From: "ray and joan" <smithnugent1@yahoo.com>
To: "Bob Lyle" <blyle@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [CFML] Introduction and some questions on Regency era fencing


> Good thoughts, Ken. I too mentioned Angelo to th
> original questor. I feel that the man with the shorter
> and quicker sword had the rapier-man at his mercy once
> he was within the point of the longer weapon,
> especially using in-line tactics rather than dancing
> in a circle. Of course if the rapier-wielder has a
> dagger... Ray
> --- Bob Lyle <blyle@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > Or Spain. Angelo has a chapter on defeating the
> > Spanish school, and his
> > picture looks like a 40" cuphilt rapier.
> > http://pages.sbcglobal.net/blyle/Angelo/43.png
> >
> > Bob Lyle
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ken Mondschein" <editor@corporatemofo.com>
> > To: <hayes@efn.org>
> > Cc: <zebee@zip.com.au>;
> > <classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 11:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: [CFML] Introduction and some questions
> > on Regency era fencing
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Sean Hayes wrote:
> > >
> > > > Not particularly surprising, since the rapier
> > was still in fashion in
> > > > many parts of Italy at that time, particularly
> > in the south. If the
> > > > weapon of Scorza and Grisetti (1803) is any
> > indication, the southern
> > > > weapon had a smaller dish-style hilt (as opposed
> > to a 17th century
> > > > swept hilt or a later cup hilt) and the blade
> > was slightly shorter,
> > > > being a mere 40 inches instead of the 44 or so
> > of Capo Ferro's day.
> > >
> > > This is true, so if your protaganist traveled in
> > Italy, or met an Italian
> > > master, he would be familiar with these princples.
> > He might still find the
> > > rapier rather large.
> > >
> > > >> Yes. Getting hit in the boobs hurts.
> > > >
> > > > But Ken wears extra padding, so he doesn't have
> > this problem. ; )
> > >
> > > I'm so manly, I FEEL NO PAIN!!!!



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[Stephen Hand]

Yes, a good Spaniard is hard to close with. I had a fantastic bout with
Antone Blair, Silver sword vs Spanish rapier. Honours were even. The
Spaniard's great advantage is his knowledge that his blade is out there to
be beaten or bound and his readiness and ability to cede with any pressure
to gain a more favourable line. I found the Spanish rapierman far harder to
fence than an Italian.

Stephen Hand
Stoccata School of Defence
http://www.stoccata.org
Chivalry Bookshelf
http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com
Australian Historical Swordplay Federation
http://www.aushistswordplayfed.org/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Lyle" <blyle@sbcglobal.net>
To: <classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [CFML] Introduction and some questions on Regency era fencing


> Yeah, but the Spanish style is especially hard to close with. As Silver
> said,



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