History and all that (was Rapier v. court sword)

Apologies for going a bit off-topic...

Jonathan Jefferies writes:

>Once again, we see the even handed approach of gentle yankee imperialism,

McPherson specifically chose the title (of Battle Cry of Freedom) because there
were both Union and Confederate versions of the song. It was consistent with
his view that both sides were fighting for a view of freedom - just two
incompatible views. (I don't say northern and southern: it's an insult to the
literally hundreds of thousands of southerners who supported and fought for the
Union.)

>They do say that history gets rewritten by the winners.

Ooh - now you've hit on one of my pet peeves!

What they actually say is that history is written by the winners. But they are
wrong in saying it.

Don't believe that? Try the following exercises:

- Find a history of the American Civil War written by a president who served
during that war. Then find one written by a vice president who served during
that war. Guess what? In both cases, what you'll find is a book written by a
Confederate.

- Now find a history of the Vietnam War. Go ahead, find a dozen of them -
you're local bookstore will likely have that many. But surprise surprise -
most of them are written by people from the losing side!

Histories are written a whole lot of people. Usually, the history you will
find easily available in any particular place will reflect the local bias, not
the question of who won or lost. Believe me, I've found enough pro-Confederate
biases in my childrens' history schoolbooks to back up this claim. (I live in
Virginia, incidently.)

>And the history books - particularly regarding the
>"recent war between the states"
>- have been completely rewritten in light of contemporary mores.
>And might I say this is particularly true of those who wish to
>make the best seller list as dictated by the New York literati.

Gee, I guess that explains why the books of Shelby Foote have been such a
commercial failure.

JDzik wrote:
> Apologies for going a bit off-topic..
Why apologize here for that? We're all off. Didn't you know?
..
>
> Jonathan Jefferies writes:
:deleted what he had to say
>
> Believe me, I've found enough pro-Confederate
> biases in my childrens' history schoolbooks to back up this claim. (I live in
> Virginia, incidently.)
Yes but are you a southerner? Just curious.

>
>
>>And the history books - particularly regarding the
>>"recent war between the states"
>>- have been completely rewritten in light of contemporary mores.
>>And might I say this is particularly true of those who wish to
>>make the best seller list as dictated by the New York literati.
>
>
> Gee, I guess that explains why the books of Shelby Foote have been such a
> commercial failure.

And doesn't he have such a lovely voice too!? And to be a historian
as well. One source I've read believes he would have fallen into
relative obscurity if not for the Ken Burn's civil war series.
Which may also explain the commercial failure that you cite.

J.

Jonathan Jefferies writes:

>Yes but are you a southerner? Just curious.

I don't regard myself as a southerner, though I've lived in Virginia for 2/3 of
my life now. Then again, that's Northern Virginia, which culturally is not
really all that southern at all.

>And doesn't he have such a lovely voice too!? And to be a historian
>as well. One source I've read believes he would have fallen into
>relative obscurity if not for the Ken Burn's civil war series.
>Which may also explain the commercial failure that you cite.

Well, I was actually being sarcastic. As far as I know, Foote's books do
fairly well. Just about every book store carries them, and I note that on
Amazon they are currently outselling "Battle Cry of Freedom."

It's also worth noting that recent movies related to the Civil War tend to have
a Confederate viewpoint, including "Gods and Generals" and the upcoming "Cold
Mountain."

And one last note: in the reinactment community, playing Confederates is more
popular than playing Union soldiers. I've even heard that American Civil War
reinactors in England have to play Union for two years before they play
Confederate, because otherwise they wouldn't get any Union soldiers.

All of which is to say that I doubt you could make a case for cultural bias in
favor of the Union. And the "winners write the history" is not at all
accurate.

"JDzik" <jdzik@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031120090421.03468.00000603@mb-m29.aol.com...

> And one last note: in the reinactment community, playing Confederates is
more
> popular than playing Union soldiers. I've even heard that American Civil
War
> reinactors in England have to play Union for two years before they play
> Confederate, because otherwise they wouldn't get any Union soldiers.

Actually they are from two different organisations.

Last time I was at an event where they were taking part there was a full
Union brigade and a lot less Confederate soldiers.

Mainly because Union is cheaper to do...

> All of which is to say that I doubt you could make a case for cultural
bias in
> favor of the Union.

As '1066 And All that' says, 'The wrong but romantic against the right but
repulsive'

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

JDzik wrote:
> Jonathan Jefferies writes:
>
>>Yes but are you a southerner? Just curious.
>
> I don't regard myself as a southerner, though I've lived in Virginia for 2/3 of
> my life now. Then again, that's Northern Virginia, which culturally is not
> really all that southern at all.

Yes being a southerner is not necessarily a function of location. After
40 years of being away from the south and the last 20 being in liberated
northern california, SF Bay region, I am still classed as a southerner.
As in "oh and where is your accent from". And not to denigrate anyone
but northern virginia is definitely more a part of the BoshWash metro
slurb than the south.

>
>
>>And doesn't he have such a lovely voice too!? And to be a historian
>>as well. One source I've read believes he would have fallen into
>>relative obscurity if not for the Ken Burn's civil war series.
>>Which may also explain the commercial failure that you cite.
>
>
> Well, I was actually being sarcastic

Well so was I. But not for any good reason. Actually I quite enjoyed
his piece on the Ken Burns series. Actually enjoyed the whole of
the series - if truth be told.

> As far as I know, Foote's books do
> fairly well. Just about every book store carries them, and I note that on
> Amazon they are currently outselling "Battle Cry of Freedom."

Well I was given a set as a gift. Guess I'll get around to it eventually
just like I really do intend to read the copy of Les' Miserables that my
grandmother gave me for my 16 birthday.

>
> It's also worth noting that recent movies related to the Civil War tend to have
> a Confederate viewpoint, including "Gods and Generals" and the upcoming "Cold
> Mountain."
>
> And one last note: in the reinactment community, playing Confederates is more
> popular than playing Union soldiers. I've even heard that American Civil War
> reinactors in England have to play Union for two years before they play
> Confederate, because otherwise they wouldn't get any Union soldiers.
>
> All of which is to say that I doubt you could make a case for cultural bias in
> favor of the Union. And the "winners write the history" is not at all
> accurate.
I'll have to agree with Mr. Black about romantic wrongs and repulsive rights.
In all seriousness, I think you are see a mix of two very different -
almost opposing forces in american culture, moral righteousness
and romanticism. As to who wrote the history, I think I can make a
case for northern righteousness being an excuse for writing laws as
well as history. Ok, I won't bore the rest of the list by blathering on.

I do remember one quotable quote from Abraham Lincoln in 1862 on
being introduced to Harriet Beecher Stowe, author of Uncle Tom's Cabin
"So you're the little woman who wrote the book that started this Great War..."

J.

> I do remember one quotable quote from Abraham Lincoln in 1862 on
> being introduced to Harriet Beecher Stowe, author of Uncle Tom's Cabin
> "So you're the little woman who wrote the book that started this Great
War..."

That's a fantastic quote. Can you give me a reference for it? I'll find
some way to get it into an essay, but I can't really attribute it to you
(sorry).

Mark.

Mark Thompson wrote:
>>I do remember one quotable quote from Abraham Lincoln in 1862 on
>>being introduced to Harriet Beecher Stowe, author of Uncle Tom's Cabin
>>"So you're the little woman who wrote the book that started this Great
> War..."
>
> That's a fantastic quote. Can you give me a reference for it? I'll find
> some way to get it into an essay, but I can't really attribute it to you
> (sorry).
>
> Mark.
>
>
Well, try google'ing lincoln and Harriet Beecher Stowe but also
http://www.harrietbeecherstowecenter.org/life/

has it somewheres.

J.

Mark Thompson wrote:
>>I do remember one quotable quote from Abraham Lincoln in 1862 on
>>being introduced to Harriet Beecher Stowe, author of Uncle Tom's Cabin
>>"So you're the little woman who wrote the book that started this Great
> War..."
>
> That's a fantastic quote. Can you give me a reference for it? I'll find
> some way to get it into an essay, but I can't really attribute it to you
> (sorry).
>
> Mark.
>
>
Well, try google'ing lincoln and Harriet Beecher Stowe but also
http://www.harrietbeecherstowecenter.org/life/

has it somewheres.

J.