successful training regimens

I like this newsgroup!!!!

Mostly because I can ask questions like this.

What do fencers do to train to get better at fencing?

Seems a silly question, but its not. Success is a habit and
definitionally speaking.. a successful person is REPEATING tasks to
become successful. What are they?

Cardio: How much, how often. for getting in shape...then how much for
maintenance?


strength training: anyone doing something out there thats fencing
specific?
If not, then what are you doing and why?

Speed/reflex training: this is a tough topic...


Plyometrics:everyone needs a more explosive fleche right? :-) Again
what are people doing out there to become more competitive.


Fencing specific training: footwork, lunges, hand drills....


I guess Im really looking for what works for you. Like a recipe of
sorts....and as such its should be both descriptive and prescriptive.

Im just a lowly E foilsman/epeeist looking for a more systematic way
to get better.

Thanks in advance...

El Magno!

michael_lichtstrom@yahoo.com (magni) wrote in
news:23e9ba68.0311161407.207ea669@posting.google.c om:

> I guess Im really looking for what works for you. Like a recipe of
> sorts....and as such its should be both descriptive and
> prescriptive.

Hahahaa. I *wish* I were so organized as to have a training plan.
Well, I guess I do have a plan: I try to fence as much as I can and
compete as much as I can, pay attention to what works and what I do
wrong, and try to do more of what works and stop doing stupid things
that don't work. Very scientific!

But seriously... over the past few years, I've drifted away from the
more traditional drill-work that I was taught. In its place I've been
using "bout simulations," for lack of a better word. If I have
something specific that I want to work on, I try to set up a
situation with my fencing partner in which that particular tactic or
techinique gets emphasized.

Sometimes this is in a free-fencing situation, like if I want to work
on being more aggressive against a fast opponent, and I ask my
partner to switch his "AI" to "aggressive" so I am forced to deal
with it. Or other times I'll set up a specific situation to simulate
something within a bout: for instance, I need to work on retreating
smoothly in a high-pressure situation, so I'll start all the way at
the other end of the strip, and have my partner chase me down to my
end (trying to hit me).

I don't have much patience any more for drills that practice skills
in isolation - at least for me, I need to see how things work in the
context of how to score touches and prevent them being scored on me.

(It could be argued that this works for me at this point because I'm
an experienced fencer with an existing base of drilling and
traditional lessons. OTOH, the two fencers I'm unofficially training
(in that we work together and I teach them things) seem to be
progressing well, and they've never had any other kind of training.)

--Holly

magni wrote:
>
>
> What do fencers do to train to get better at fencing?

I've heard it said the best training for fencing is fencing.

>
> Seems a silly question, but its not. Success is a habit and
> definitionally speaking.. a successful person is REPEATING tasks to
> become successful. What are they?
>
> Cardio: How much, how often. for getting in shape...then how much for
> maintenance?
>
It depends largely on what level of fencing that you are at and where
you want to go. When I first started a fellow class mate, my salle at
the time was on the semester system, who was considerably more experienced
mentioned that at the old San Francisco Letterman club you would
expect to see competitive fencers there 4 or 5 days each week. I scoffed
thinking my then 2 weekly classes were taking way more time than I had
thought. Two years later I found myself attending three different clubs
and fencing anywhere from 4 to 6 days a week. That was overdoing it -
as my body soon instructed me. At least for a 57 year old. On the other
hand, Eric Hansen, one of the top 3 US epeeists, mentioned one evening that
he trains about 35+ hours a week. So to me that sort of defines the range.
I believe two evenings a week are minimum and for a top level person you
can expect to spend close to 40 hours a week. The limiting factor on how
much you can train - as I discovered the hard way - is how long does it
take for your body to recover from the stress of training. If you are
competitive then there is no "maintenance" mode. Those guys are always
pushing their envelope. As a vet though I've backed off to 3-4 days
a week fencing with a daily regime tossed in. In the vets especially but
at all levels the trick is to recognize when you're over doing it before
you do damage.


>
> strength training: anyone doing something out there thats fencing
> specific?
> If not, then what are you doing and why?
Footwork is the biggee. Stretch and move. In fencing you're in a 3 minute
sprint with 1 minute rests in between. Stamina and endurance come down to
being able to ramp up fast, hold your focus, and then slow cool in the long
periods in between bouts. As you move up the ladder (DE) then the periods
between bouts come down to 10 minutes.

You can do footwork on your own but it's best to have someone around to
monitor you so you don't have to unlearn bad habits.
>
> Speed/reflex training: this is a tough topic...
>
>
> Plyometrics:everyone needs a more explosive fleche right? :-) Again
> what are people doing out there to become more competitive.

If you want something besides fencing then consider rope jumping.
Try the book by Buddy Lee, "Jump Rope Training, Techniques and
programs for Improved Fitness and performance". I believe he has
a website www.buddyleejumpropes.com
Their products are a tad expensive but look real nice. I make
do with a home made setup. But be cautious. I got up to 800
a day and found my knees giving me a problem. I'll back off
that until after the NAC.

> Fencing specific training: footwork, lunges, hand drills....

Get yourself the best coach you can and work with them until you've
gotten as far as you can there. This is a sport which requires a
coach. At least one twenty minute lesson, one on one, a week is what
I consider minimum. Then about 100 lunges a day broken between
short, medium, long and advance lunge.
>
>
> I guess Im really looking for what works for you. Like a recipe of
> sorts....and as such its should be both descriptive and prescriptive.
>
Not a bad line of inquiry but realize that what works for me may not
be for you.

As Musashai wrote
"These things cannot be explained in detail. From one thing, know
ten thousand things. When you attain the Way of strategy there will
not be one thing you cannot see. You must study hard."

J.

Jonathan Jefferies <jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net> wrote in
news:3fb91a2f$0$9407$2c56edd9@news.cablerocket.com :

> magni wrote:
>> What do fencers do to train to get better at fencing?
>
> I've heard it said the best training for fencing is fencing.

The more I fence, the more I agree with that statement!

>> Cardio: How much, how often. for getting in shape...then how much
>> for maintenance?
>>
> [snip description of range of training] I
> believe two evenings a week are minimum and for a top level person
> you can expect to spend close to 40 hours a week.

What do you mean by "minimum"? Minimum to achieve a certain level? I
do agree that practicing twice a week is a decent baseline training
level, the amount of training that's needed to compete effectively
varies a *lot* by individual. Last spring, from mid-December to June,
the *only* fencing I did was at competitions, which meant fencing 4-6
times per month. (This was far from ideal, but was the consequence of
no sabrists at my local club during that time, and since I have a life
outside of fencing, I chose not to devote the commute time (1 hour
each way) that would have been necessary to get to the next closest
club with sabrists.) I still ended up with solid, if not stellar,
results at Nationals - better than the previous year's results.

For this season, I'm back to having sabrists to practice with again
(hooray) and I'll be fencing twice a week (totalling about 3-4 hours
per week, I guess), which feels like a substantial amount of training.

I think where my train of thought is heading is that *quality* of
training is more important than *quantity* of training. When I go to
practice, I go to FENCE - not hang around chatting with other fencers
for twenty minutes between bouts, not to do abstract drills and
exercises for an hour. When I'm done with practice, I'm beat!

How well a person retains what they learn is another issue. Some
people need a lot of repetition of something before they learn it, and
practicing more frequently can be more beneficial to them than to
someone who picks things up quickly.

Anyway, the point that I intended to make was that someone shouldn't
feel like they can't fence seriously, if they can only fence twice a
week on a regular basis - it's not that kind of "minimum." More *is*
better (no denying that!) but you can do a lot with once or twice a
week, or even less, if you concentrate and make it quality time.

> You can do footwork on your own but it's best to have someone
> around to monitor you so you don't have to unlearn bad habits.

Yes indeed.

> Then about 100 lunges a day broken between
> short, medium, long and advance lunge.

Holy ****. You must have Knees of Steel, and I envy you. I would *not*
be able to do that. I would drop a zero and suggest 10 lunges, *paying
attention to form*. Twice as many sloppy lunges is a lot worse than
half as many correct lunges.

I'll add that I think the advance lunge is the most important of
these. I see a fair number of beginner/intermediate fencers who can do
a competent lunge in isolation, but have little ability to insert it
into a fencing phrase when needed. Practicing it as an advance lunge
at least gets your body to recognize that a lunge is something that
usually happens while you're moving, not while you're stationary.

--Holly

Anyone else have anything to add? I was hoping to get a variety of
responses from many people. From them I was going to cull what i
thought would be the most helpful and create a fencing specific
training log/

Bodybuilders use them, i see no reason why we shouldn't. Im a big
believer in standardized training. Otherwise progression...if it
exists at all..is haphazard at best.

O Magnum Mysterium!

Magni

PS: thanks to Holly and Jonathan for their advice. :-)



"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<Xns9436926B96BDA5439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.196 .97.136>...
> Jonathan Jefferies <jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net> wrote in
> news:3fb91a2f$0$9407$2c56edd9@news.cablerocket.com :
>
> > magni wrote:
> >> What do fencers do to train to get better at fencing?
> >
> > I've heard it said the best training for fencing is fencing.
>
> The more I fence, the more I agree with that statement!
>
> >> Cardio: How much, how often. for getting in shape...then how much
> >> for maintenance?
> >>
> > [snip description of range of training] I
> > believe two evenings a week are minimum and for a top level person
> > you can expect to spend close to 40 hours a week.
>
> What do you mean by "minimum"? Minimum to achieve a certain level? I
> do agree that practicing twice a week is a decent baseline training
> level, the amount of training that's needed to compete effectively
> varies a *lot* by individual. Last spring, from mid-December to June,
> the *only* fencing I did was at competitions, which meant fencing 4-6
> times per month. (This was far from ideal, but was the consequence of
> no sabrists at my local club during that time, and since I have a life
> outside of fencing, I chose not to devote the commute time (1 hour
> each way) that would have been necessary to get to the next closest
> club with sabrists.) I still ended up with solid, if not stellar,
> results at Nationals - better than the previous year's results.
>
> For this season, I'm back to having sabrists to practice with again
> (hooray) and I'll be fencing twice a week (totalling about 3-4 hours
> per week, I guess), which feels like a substantial amount of training.
>
> I think where my train of thought is heading is that *quality* of
> training is more important than *quantity* of training. When I go to
> practice, I go to FENCE - not hang around chatting with other fencers
> for twenty minutes between bouts, not to do abstract drills and
> exercises for an hour. When I'm done with practice, I'm beat!
>
> How well a person retains what they learn is another issue. Some
> people need a lot of repetition of something before they learn it, and
> practicing more frequently can be more beneficial to them than to
> someone who picks things up quickly.
>
> Anyway, the point that I intended to make was that someone shouldn't
> feel like they can't fence seriously, if they can only fence twice a
> week on a regular basis - it's not that kind of "minimum." More *is*
> better (no denying that!) but you can do a lot with once or twice a
> week, or even less, if you concentrate and make it quality time.
>
> > You can do footwork on your own but it's best to have someone
> > around to monitor you so you don't have to unlearn bad habits.
>
> Yes indeed.
>
> > Then about 100 lunges a day broken between
> > short, medium, long and advance lunge.
>
> Holy ****. You must have Knees of Steel, and I envy you. I would *not*
> be able to do that. I would drop a zero and suggest 10 lunges, *paying
> attention to form*. Twice as many sloppy lunges is a lot worse than
> half as many correct lunges.
>
> I'll add that I think the advance lunge is the most important of
> these. I see a fair number of beginner/intermediate fencers who can do
> a competent lunge in isolation, but have little ability to insert it
> into a fencing phrase when needed. Practicing it as an advance lunge
> at least gets your body to recognize that a lunge is something that
> usually happens while you're moving, not while you're stationary.
>
> --Holly

Hi there I actually fence about 5 times a week, 4 to 5 hours per trainning.
Fencing 3 day, relax 2 day, fencing 2 day, relax 1 day. I use to study on
paper what ive done in the week when i relax, it is good to order everything
in your brain

Cardio & Strength : I use to do it, by doing footwork (in specific
sequence), after a good stretching for more flexibility. About 40 minutes
alternating from 2 minutes maximum speed 8 minutes good speed. 4 times.
Excellent for strengh, endurance and cardio.

Speed/reflex : With a partner or coach, I do for about 30 minutes of an
alternate exercise. Example On the coach signal, (parry 4) dissengage lunge
hit. And the partner may or not parry 6 or counter 4 then you doublé or 1,2.
It is good to train your reflex and speed of reaction

Technique & precision : For about 30 mintues i train on specific exercises
with a coach. Keeping right distance a doing right bladework. ( Better doing
this with a coach since he need to correct your movement. )

Tactical : In a bout with another fencer I try to land the specific action
that I chose,usually the one i was trainning with the coach (bring the other
fencer to do what you want) and touching only with this for about 1 hour.

Experience : Fence, fence, fence. Lots of different fencer. Different
weapons. I sometimes try for fun in dry bouts, foil against saber
(respecting priority) Or for foil epee against foil the foil respecting the
priority while epee not. ( Good training to put only on light at a time )

Agleos Arkeneight fanatic of fencing, however started a little bit late.

Remember dont overtrain yourself, if you find some regression in your
performance, cut to two trainning in a week then begin back, and my coach
told me no weight training cos it ruin precision.

"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote in message news:<0iPub.1342$NB4.18660@news20.bellglobal.com>. ..
<snip>
> Remember dont overtrain yourself, if you find some regression in
your
> performance, cut to two trainning in a week then begin back, and my coach
> told me no weight training cos it ruin precision.

I agree with the overtraining concern--too many people think training
every day will produce great results. You can train every day if
you're doing something different on those days (vary your workouts
thoroughly), but even then you should probably have a rest day built
into your week. Periodically, if I have more than one exhausted
low-caliber day in fencing, where I just can't make myself move, it's
time for a few extra days off.

However, I disagree about weight training being bad for you. Light
weights, high reps, twice a week, gradually increasing weights, for
the last six months have improved my precision and my relaxation. My
stance is better, my lunge is better, my point control is better.
Again, remember that the recovery days are when the muscle builds, not
on the days you stress the muscles, so build recovery into your
schedule.

dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in
news:a02e0196.0311191411.39603ee5@posting.google.c om:

> However, I disagree about weight training being bad for you. Light
> weights, high reps, twice a week, gradually increasing weights, for
> the last six months have improved my precision and my relaxation.

What weight weights (that sounds funny) did you start with, and what
weight are you using now? "Light" is a very relative term.

--Holly

"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<Xns9438C134A16EF5439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.196 .97.136>...

> What weight weights (that sounds funny) did you start with, and what
> weight are you using now? "Light" is a very relative term.
>
> --Holly

I use weight machines at my health club. I have two alternating
full-body workouts, each of which I do once a week.

"Light weight" is indeed a relative term. It means the weight at
which I can do 15 reps with correct form, smoothly and slowly (3-4
seconds up, 3-4 seconds down), holding the weight at its fullest
extension for a second before lowering it. When I can do the full 15,
I increase the weight by 2 to 8 pounds on my next session. I only do
one set per machine per workout because that's the philosophy at my
health club. On most of the machines I do, I've doubled or tripled
the weight I can lift doing this routine. For instance, on the leg
press machine I started out around 200 pounds, and now I'm over 400.

--Delia

> I agree with the overtraining concern--too many people think training
> every day will produce great results. You can train every day if
> you're doing something different on those days (vary your workouts
> thoroughly), but even then you should probably have a rest day built
> into your week. Periodically, if I have more than one exhausted
> low-caliber day in fencing, where I just can't make myself move, it's
> time for a few extra days off.
>
> However, I disagree about weight training being bad for you. Light
> weights, high reps, twice a week, gradually increasing weights, for
> the last six months have improved my precision and my relaxation. My
> stance is better, my lunge is better, my point control is better.
> Again, remember that the recovery days are when the muscle builds, not
> on the days you stress the muscles, so build recovery into your
> schedule.

Thank you for the advice, maybe im gonna try it. Till not sure but ive
always liked weight trainning. My coach says he tried several time to put
some weight trainning in is schedule but the results were horrible maybe its
the age he train more with young fencers than adults ( 17 years old ) i am
curently 22 so I wont grow again

Ill try it and give you some news !

Agleos Arkeneight

"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<Xns9438C134A16EF5439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.196 .97.136>...

<snip all>

You gonna be at the Charm City, Holly? I'm planning on it.

--Delia

dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in
news:a02e0196.0311201711.24ac88f4@posting.google.c om:

> You gonna be at the Charm City, Holly? I'm planning on it.

You better believe I'll be there! I'm looking forward to it - and this
time if we meet up in the DEs, I want it to be MUCH later on in the
tableau! :-)

--Holly

"Holly E. Ordway" <OUTordwayWITHTHIS@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<Xns9439D46DB5D895439754hjkgfdjio5408@216.196 .97.136>...
> dmturner@dmturner.org (Delia M. Turner) wrote in
> news:a02e0196.0311201711.24ac88f4@posting.google.c om:
>
> > You gonna be at the Charm City, Holly? I'm planning on it.
>
> You better believe I'll be there! I'm looking forward to it - and this
> time if we meet up in the DEs, I want it to be MUCH later on in the
> tableau! :-)
>
> --Holly

I hope so--though since I seem to treat Charm City as an opportunity
to have a horrible tournament and fence like an idiot before the first
Division I NAC, you never know!

--Delia