Two Prong versus Bayonet

[Y.L.]

What's the opinion out there regarding which is better: two prong or bayonet
body cords. The folks at my club tell me bayonet is less relable but I
haven't been fencing that long to tell if that's true and if so how less
reliable is it. So far, they're both fine with me, bayonet seems a little
more easy to use.

[Andrew John]

Y.L,

Bayonet attachments in my experience don't have little problems. Only big ones.
1) They have a better electrical and mechanical connection, especially over the 2 prongs that are just solid pins
so less prone to intermittent off targets (foil).
2) They don't come out as easily - also because of the spring.
3) I find they do not get in the way of my hand as much, although I've a friend who thinks the reverse.

But:
a) When they break it can be catastrophic - they are more mechanically complex
b) They are harder to fault find - two prong foils can be tested by using banana leads or even
normal ones and a multimeter, without requiring 3 arms. In foil shorting out the body wire on the guard for
testing is also easier with 2 prong.
c) When two prongs "break" its normally just the lead - shorten it and away you go again. When a bayonet lead
or socket starts going dodgy it's time to throw it away (Only keep the non-standard screws for spares ).

I fenced for years with Soudet two prongs, but now use bayonet. Although my friend has almost convinced me to give
the Prior? two prong, which have a better attachment, a go.

Regards
AJ

"Y.L." <fmasters@nospamatnospam.com> wrote in message
news:jgFsb.246888$0v4.17188080@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> What's the opinion out there regarding which is better: two prong or bayonet
> body cords. The folks at my club tell me bayonet is less relable but I
> haven't been fencing that long to tell if that's true and if so how less
> reliable is it. So far, they're both fine with me, bayonet seems a little
> more easy to use.
>
>

[Thom Cate]

"Y.L." <fmasters@nospamatnospam.com> wrote in message news:<jgFsb.246888$0v4.17188080@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> What's the opinion out there regarding which is better: two prong or bayonet
> body cords. The folks at my club tell me bayonet is less relable but I
> haven't been fencing that long to tell if that's true and if so how less
> reliable is it. So far, they're both fine with me, bayonet seems a little
> more easy to use.

Ah, the proverbial "Can of worms" question.

You might as well ask "Mac or Windows," "Republican or Democrat,"
"Catholic or Protestant." Fortunately, this issue is not quite so
dodgy.

I was a bayonet fan for over 11 years. Nothing could sway my mind. I
constantly saw 2-prongs fail, fall out during crucial actions or lose
the little plastic bit that alleges to keep the plug in the socket. I
did admire the ease of repair the two-prong has, but given it's
proclivity to leap out of the socket, I wasn't about to switch.

Until I discovered Uhlmann two-prong sockets AND body cords, which
work together (there are a couple other systems which do the same
thing; I prefer Uhlmann's). The body cord has a push-button lock
which firmly attaches the socket--and in Uhlmann's case, the socket is
built like a tank. I switched over to 2-prong (some say "2-pole"),
and never regretted it.

Given the ease of fixing that a two-prong weapon has (I've rebuilt
sockets and body cords between pool bouts!), and the dead-lock
security of the cord in the socket, I reccomend two-prong to everyone.

But this is as much an emotional subject as it is logical. People
LIKE their bayonets--I sure did. There is a certain visceral
satisfaction to the "push-and-twist" mechanism of the bayonet. That
same mechanism was the reason for many loud curse or epithet while
trying to fix a body cord.

My advice: 2-prong. Just NOT those made by certain French companies
or their Chinese imitators. You'll save money up front--and lose
touches and hair in the end.

Cheers,

TC

[magni]

"Y.L." <fmasters@nospamatnospam.com> wrote in message news:<jgFsb.246888$0v4.17188080@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> What's the opinion out there regarding which is better: two prong or bayonet
> body cords. The folks at my club tell me bayonet is less relable but I
> haven't been fencing that long to tell if that's true and if so how less
> reliable is it. So far, they're both fine with me, bayonet seems a little
> more easy to use.

Ok.... I have never noticed a Leon Paul Bayonet cord fail. Ive seen
copies fail worse than a frozen o-ring...but never a leon paul cord.
Sure they need to be cut down periodically. but they are the best
cords out there.

Ive watched a coach and 3 others with leon paul cords. 2 of them have
2 cords EACH from the mid 80's. They've rarely had to cut them down
and rework them.

I have 3 uhlmann 2 prongs. Ive had to cut down all 3 in less than a
year. Not due to use and oxidation...but to breakages in the wire just
under the blue plastic piece on either end. Since then I have
thoroughly wrapped in ducttape.

Oh the WORST, most offal part about uhlmann cords is keeping the metal
prongs in the blue plastic slots while putting them back together.
takes forever.

Also, theres less that goes wrong with a leon paul socket than a 2
prong. If you take a qtip to yer sockets with some alcohol after each
tourney youll not likely ever have problems. ever.

So buy leon paul cords. You can buy their masks. they make great
masks.
They have cool uniforms. but their blades suck compared to vniti or
PS.

O Magnum mysterium....

Magni

[Perry Quan]

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:07:53 +1100, "Andrew John"
<aj@DELETEmistrose.com> wrote:


>b) They are harder to fault find - two prong foils can be tested by using banana leads or even
> normal ones and a multimeter, without requiring 3 arms. In foil shorting out the body wire on the guard for
> testing is also easier with 2 prong.

The post and plate at the end of the bayonet is the same as the two
plugs on the two prong. Testing with a multimeter is just as simple.
Grounding against the guard is also just as simple as laying agains
the guard.

>c) When two prongs "break" its normally just the lead - shorten it and away you go again. When a bayonet lead
> or socket starts going dodgy it's time to throw it away (Only keep the non-standard screws for spares ).

Really? One only needs to find the break, shorten it and your on your
way.

I personally use a bayonet. But only the Leon Paul bayonets. Other
brands have just been crap. And it's the same with the two prongs. I
know people using two prongs and not surpisingly, the cheap bodycords
give them grief. Paying extra for quality makes a difference.

Bottom line: Use whatever you feel comfortable with. But more
importantly, use whatever your club mates use so you can borrow their
stuff in a pinch.

[Andrew John]

"Perry Quan" <ryersonfencing@yahoo.ca.invalid> wrote in message news:vui8rv4hq70nohbod8vr1nrialria29rep@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:07:53 +1100, "Andrew John"
> <aj@DELETEmistrose.com> wrote:
>
> The post and plate at the end of the bayonet is the same as the two
> plugs on the two prong. Testing with a multimeter is just as simple.
> Grounding against the guard is also just as simple as laying agains
> the guard.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Testing a two prong foil (not the bodywire) with
a multimeter is physically much easier than bayonet. Electrically they are the same,
but physically it's a lot harder to attach a multimeter to, and still have a
hand free to push the point in, without shorting it, or letting go.
You can also readily buy/adapt 'banana' leads for multimeters, but not bayonets.
Doing a 500g weight test with a multimeter is also easier with 2 prong.

Testing the bodywire on the piste by placing the guard (from the removed foil) between
the two prongs to short it is easier, than trying to short a bayonet post and plate
You even have a hand free ( if somewhat dexterous ) to jiggle the overhead and attaching clip.
But with bayonet I haven't had to test as often, because the gremlins are less frequent.

>
> >c) When two prongs "break" its normally just the lead - shorten it and away you go again. When a bayonet lead
> > or socket starts going dodgy it's time to throw it away (Only keep the non-standard screws for spares ).
>
> Really? One only needs to find the break, shorten it and your on your
> way.
>
> I personally use a bayonet. But only the Leon Paul bayonets.

Likewise I think. ( I'll have to check ), but I've still had problems with oxidation,
and breaking the head of the non-standard screw.
The socket I've found is slightly easier to attach to a foil than 2 prong,
as that screw is easier to get at, but I think that is more than balanced by the bodywire being fiddlier to rewire,
and easier to get the wires the wrong way around.
The 2 prongs I've used had the wire break moe often ( but never anything else ),
and so were always easy and inexpensive to fix ( just too frequent ).

> Bottom line: Use whatever you feel comfortable with. But more
> importantly, use whatever your club mates use so you can borrow their
> stuff in a pinch.

Agree entirely. But are clubs normally that homogenous? Mine certainly isn't.


Regards
AJ

[Perry Quan]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:33:53 +1100, "Andrew John"
<aj@DELETEmistrose.com> wrote:

>Perhaps I wasn't clear. Testing a two prong foil (not the bodywire) with
>a multimeter is physically much easier than bayonet. Electrically they are the same,

True. But then I use a test box so I don't encounter that problem.

>Testing the bodywire on the piste by placing the guard (from the removed foil) between
>the two prongs to short it is easier, than trying to short a bayonet post and plate
>You even have a hand free ( if somewhat dexterous ) to jiggle the overhead and attaching clip.
>But with bayonet I haven't had to test as often, because the gremlins are less frequent.

I don't find it a problem to short out post and plate with to the
guard with one hand. But I've been using a bayonet since forever so
I've lots of practice.


>> Bottom line: Use whatever you feel comfortable with. But more
>> importantly, use whatever your club mates use so you can borrow their
>> stuff in a pinch.
>
>Agree entirely. But are clubs normally that homogenous? Mine certainly isn't.

Not completely, but I know for mine, it is predominantly bayonet.

[David Neevel]

Andrew John wrote:

> "Perry Quan" <ryersonfencing@yahoo.ca.invalid> wrote in message news:vui8rv4hq70nohbod8vr1nrialria29rep@4ax.com...
>
>
> Perhaps I wasn't clear. Testing a two prong foil (not the bodywire) with
> a multimeter is physically much easier than bayonet. Electrically they are the same,
> but physically it's a lot harder to attach a multimeter to, and still have a
> hand free to push the point in, without shorting it, or letting go.
> You can also readily buy/adapt 'banana' leads for multimeters, but not bayonets.
> Doing a 500g weight test with a multimeter is also easier with 2 prong.
>

What you want to do is acquire some stackable bananna jack leads for you meter, which can plug onto
the 3-pin end of a body cord. Using a meter is in just about all cases preferable to an LED box-- you'll be able
to spot trouble developing (anything more than 2 ohms in the foil) before it gets to the point where it'll affect a
scoring machine.

-Dave

[PAN CYAN]

My son, a saber fencer, lost some touches at the worst possible times, by not
having his light register after a direct hit. our coach said it ws due to the
bayonet plug breaking contact as a result of the sabers contact with the
target, because its foward momentum overcomes the tension of the spring and
momentatily breaks the circuit.
we now use 2 prong. they seem to stand up better in saber

[Fencerbill]

In article <20031117070516.12138.00000281@mb-m26.aol.com>, pancyan@aol.com (PAN
CYAN) writes:

>My son, a saber fencer, lost some touches at the worst possible times, by not
>
>having his light register after a direct hit. our coach said it ws due to the
>bayonet plug breaking contact as a result of the sabers contact with the
>target, because its foward momentum overcomes the tension of the spring and
>momentatily breaks the circuit.

Rubbish. I am an armorer and a Sabre fencer. Your son, as I have been at
several times (including the Veterans World Championships), was the victim of
the "whipover lockout timing" part of the scoring machine. I will bet that
these touches were mask cuts arriving right after incidental blade contact.

For about 15 milliseconds after blade contact the scoring machine will not
accept contact with Lame/mask as a valid touch. This is to negate lame contact,
due to the flexibility of the blade, after valid parries. If the blade then has
a hard bounce off the mask it will have already made contact and left the mask
before the scoring machine will accept contact with valid target.

I have seen phrases in which both fencers had obvious mask hits, with
incidental blade contact, and neither of the lights came on.

One way to avoid this is by proper coaching. The fencer should place the blade
on the mask, not bounce it off the mask with a flick-like motion. Another
method is to hit on the shoulder, not the mask. A contact on the body doesn't
bounce and has longer contact with valid target, staying in contact until after
the lockout interval.

I expect your son's coach has little previous experience with bayonet
plug/sockets and is prejudiced against them. That is fine, two-pin plugs work
just fine and we all prefer equipment we are familiar with.

If his idea was valid, why don't Foil fencers have the same problem? If that
was happening with Foil, there would be white lights from the break in contact.

Bill Hall

[William Marshal]

fencerbill@aol.com (Fencerbill) wrote

> For about 15 milliseconds after blade contact the scoring machine will not
> accept contact with Lame/mask as a valid touch. This is to negate lame contact
> due to the flexibility of the blade, after valid parries. If the blade then > has a hard bounce off the mask it will have already made contact and left the > mask before the scoring machine will accept contact with valid target.

This is the first explanation I have ever seen for this maddening
phenomenon! Thanks, Bill! ( We have been thinking that there was
something wrong with our box... )

Why do you think this doesn't happen more with cuts that "bounce" off
guards and hit target after blade contacts? I can't remember a single
of this ever happening, only mask hits...




> One way to avoid this is by proper coaching. The fencer should place the blade
> on the mask, not bounce it off the mask with a flick-like motion. Another
> method is to hit on the shoulder, not the mask. A contact on the body doesn't
> bounce and has longer contact with valid target, staying in contact until after
> the lockout interval.
>
> I expect your son's coach has little previous experience with bayonet
> plug/sockets and is prejudiced against them. That is fine, two-pin plugs work
> just fine and we all prefer equipment we are familiar with.
>
> If his idea was valid, why don't Foil fencers have the same problem? If that
> was happening with Foil, there would be white lights from the break in contact.
>
> Bill Hall

[emkaminski@snet.net]

two prong is much easier to fix

"Y.L." <fmasters@nospamatnospam.com> wrote in message
news:jgFsb.246888$0v4.17188080@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> What's the opinion out there regarding which is better: two prong or
bayonet
> body cords. The folks at my club tell me bayonet is less relable but I
> haven't been fencing that long to tell if that's true and if so how less
> reliable is it. So far, they're both fine with me, bayonet seems a little
> more easy to use.
>
>
>