From estoc to rapier

Hi all,
previously in another topic i was arguing of my opinion on the rapier to be
a descendant of the tuck or estoc. I tough in second that they are not
really alike as other had said on the forum. I then put on boots and get
to the librairy. to find lots of goods works. thats why i havent replied for
that time ;P Ive got some info founded in a book from Maitre Girard Six on
fencing that says the same about the rapier, and i think from a source of
the treatise of master thibault is the same info. Maybe the french estoc is
not the same as english tuck. In words i mean ..

Looking for someone more knowledgable to tell me more about arms history.

Agleos

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:32:26 +0000 (UTC), "William Black"
<black_william@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Trim Plus Expert" <trimplus@bellnet.ca> wrote in message
>news:9wTrb.1741$kA6.136089@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
>>. Maybe the french estoc is
>> not the same as english tuck. In words i mean ..
>
>It almost certainly is.
>
>However there is a cycle of development of the civilian sword that can be
>traced back beyond the introduction of the estoc.
>
>Essentially the blade develops through a double edged sword to a lighter
>version usually called a 'sword/rapier, and on to the true rapier.

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. A.V.B. Norman in his
introduction to "The Rapier and Small-Sword 1460-1820" makes a big
deal about the fact that estocs or tucks and rapiers were *not* the
same sorts of weapons and that they existed simultaneously. He
mentions numerous examples in the 1547 post-mortem inventory of Henry
VIII where rapiers and tucks are listed separately.

Judging by the examples I saw on my trip to England last summer, I'm
inclined to agree. The rapiers had blades that were a flattened
diamond or oval. The tucks had a blade with three or four edges. ASCI
art of blade cross-section:

Rapier blade: /\
/ \
\ /
\/

Tuck blade: /\
< >
\/

(The tuck blade picture isn't entirely accurate, all four sides should
be the same length.) The ones I saw also seemed to be more massive
than the rapier blades.

-Chris Zakes
Texas

I came up here for a party, and what happens? Nothing! Not even
ice cream. The gods looked down and laughed. This would be a
better world for children if the parents had to eat the spinach.

-Groucho Marx, "Animal Crackers"