Power vs. Finess Grips

[Jonathan]

I was looking through a pile of old grips in the armory of my club and I found that the Belgium grip was most comfortable for me. When I told a senior fencer that I wanted to start fencing with the Belgium, he told me that it was a power grip and lacked finess. Is this true and what are the benefits or disadvantages? Should I stick with the standard grip?

[Fechter1]

Originally posted by Jonathan
I was looking through a pile of old grips in the armory of my club and I found that the Belgium grip was most comfortable for me. When I told a senior fencer that I wanted to start fencing with the Belgium, he told me that it was a power grip and lacked finess. Is this true and what are the benefits or disadvantages? Should I stick with the standard grip?

By standard grip, I assume you mean the french handle?

Every handle can be used as a power grip and as a finesse grip. You can fence a finesse game with a pistol grip, just as you can use a french handle for a power game. It all depends on your personal preference.

Personally, I don't like the belgian handle at all. I use the italian visconti (ok, sometims I break out my french for a little pommel game...). But it's totally up to you, what you feel most comfortable with. Of course, you should also listen to what your coach tells you.

[Feanor]

Perhaps the senior fencer really meant to say that it was "easier" to accomplish certain finger/hand/wrist positions with the French grip than with the Pistol grip, and that the pistol grip afforded certain "leverage" advantages that might or might not prove beneficial depending on your fencing style?

My experience is that there are certain angulated attacks that are far easier to execute in a relaxed manner with a French grip, and on the flip side, basic parries with the pistol grip feel more "sure" and effective.

The french grip provides more range of motion for finger play, the pistol grip can certainly be used with the fingers as well, being able to achieve close to the same range, but only with modification to grip positioning that moves away from the optimal that was intended.

I'm thinking your Senior fencing aquaintance said "finesse" because that is typically used as a description of fencing using more "finger play" as opposed to hand/wrist/arm manipulation of the foil which the pistol grips have a tendency to bring out.

Both grips can be used with great effectiveness, and the parry that is "just enough" to deflect the point an inch off target ultimately has the same result as one that beats the attacking blade 3 feet to the inside, but the French grip does require more attention to detail and anticipation when fencing, the pistol grip on the other hand, being able to start actions slightly later because of mechanical advantages of leverage and muscle group utillization inherent with its design.

In the end I think a good definition of the two styles of grips is that the French must do essentially the same thing as the pistol grip with less applied force, so blade actions become more definitive and subtle, rather than explosive and powerful... Kind of like Karate vs Tai Chi; Both combat disciplines (though Tai chi is used mainly for meditation and Fitness) But just think how incredible it would be to see someone floor an aggressive attacker by using Tai Chi That might be a good analogy in this case for the two grip types...

I personally prefer the French grip, but realize the competitive advantages of the pistol grip. I think many fencers think this way as well... Maybe if fencing granted points for "style" this would change

Don't think of one grip being "Better" than the other, rather, think of it as each grip having a range of advantages and disadvantages, and how you fence, or how you want to fence, will dictate which one you choose...

Have a good one!

[wflaschka]

IMHO, any grip can be a non-finesse grip or a finesse grip... it depends on the size of the grip. Many fencers buy grips that are too large for their hands, and thereby lock themselves into making huge parries and never-direct extensions. Large grips fill the palm completely, so holding the grip is like holding a brick, or a wooden club. With smaller-sized handles, the palm is not filled, and so it's more like holding a baton, or a pointer. The only exception is the belgian, which always fills the whole palm, regardless of its size.

Generally: If the grip fills the palm so there's no space between the palm and the grip, then it cannot be used for finesse because every tiny movement must originate from the wrist or elbow. If the grip doesn't fill the palm, so that there is a hollow between the palm and the grip, then it's a finesse grip, because small movements can be generated with finger twitches.

I think "finesse" grips turn out to be more powerful than "power" grips. Watch two kids play-fencing, one with a broomstick pole, the other with a baseball bat. The kid with the more maneuverable tool is able to quickly create power and energy on command, anywhere it's necessary. It's somewhat the same with fencing.

[remise]

I have a joint disease, and the Belgium grip is one of the few grips that I can fence with. I find I have great point control with it, and to me, it flows easily and flawlessly in my hand.

On the other hand, my son fences exclusively with a french grip, and wouldn't be caught dead with a visconti, belgium, russian, or any other kind of grip. I agree that a grip preference is a personal thing to each fencer.

[Jonathan]

Thanks for the help. I also play percussion instruments and I am starting to see similarities between the way the French grip is described and feels, and drumstick technique. Both require a certain amount of finerplay that might be difficult incorporate with a grip that is molded to your hand.

[neevel]

A fundamental item to keep in mind with pistol grips is that you do not want to get one that completely fills your hand. You want a smaller grip that sits forward in the hand (up in the fold of the fingers) so that it can shift around in the palm as you manipulate it with the fingers. It's fairly common to see people using grips that are oversized for their hands, and that contributes to developing a death-clench on the weapon.

-Dave

[The0ne]

Italian Visconti is best, no questions asked!!! I don't like Belgians, and in my experience the fencers who do use them do have "power" styles, just because you can't do anything else with a Belgian. However I've heard that they feel the most like a french grip and so are moderately popular for intermediate fencers.

[MIke Bauer]

Originally posted by wflaschka
Watch two kids play-fencing, one with a broomstick pole, the other with a baseball bat...

Man. Rough neighborhood....

[Feanor]

Originally posted by wflaschka
Watch two kids play-fencing, one with a broomstick pole, the other with a baseball bat. The kid with the more maneuverable tool is able to quickly create power and energy on command, anywhere it's necessary. It's somewhat the same with fencing.

I think that analogy has less to do with the grips and more to do with the weight and weapon balance Agree though that the more manueverable broomstick can apply energy on the target where desired, but if the kid landed a successful touch with the bat, I think it would be a while before they could go En Garde again

[MyraTrue]

I've been told similar things about Belgians. In my primary club, most of the epeeists like Belgians. I was the oddball, because I love the German Visconti, followed by the Italian Visconti. Belgians hurt my hands (at least the ones we had) and I don't like them.

That said, I picked one up the other day, and I feel like I've got better finger control with the extra prong now. But no more power than I have with my viscontis...

But really, I'd ignore what other fencers have to say about one grip or other making your fencing style into something else. Fence with what you like, what feels good, and fence well. Thats all I can think to say, because each person likes something else.

[Aestro]

To repeat what pretty much everyone else said, it does mostly just depend on your style and on what feels comfotable. The Belgian has that extra spot on it which sometimes leads to a deathgrip, which in turn makes it more of a "power" grip (tighter grip means harder beats/parries/attacks), while the visconti lacks that stopper, which promotes a more loose grip and thus more finesse. However, learning to properly hold a Belgian will easily give that mobility back and possibly provide extra stability, and a death grip on a Visconti is pure hell for everything.

On a side-note, I started with a Belgian, then fell in love with the Zivkovic Z, and can now easily handle most pistol grips.

There are no "right" grips, and only one wrong one - the American.

[xcr]

I have used Belgin, Vesconti and Feench drips, and find my point control and general strengh of action is best with the belgin- and it does leave room for finger work. Its also (for me) th most comfortable. Try a few, and use whatever you find best.
One more thing- What is an Americian grip?

[neevel]

Originally posted by xcr
I have used Belgin, Vesconti and Feench drips, and find my point control and general strengh of action is best with the belgin- and it does leave room for finger work. Its also (for me) th most comfortable. Try a few, and use whatever you find best.
One more thing- What is an Americian grip?

I've seen the term "American grip" use to denote two distinct handles. One is really just the big, blocky old-style Belgian grip (as opposed to the slimmer "modern" Belgian which is now the norm). The other is a Belgian with the lower-rear spire sawed off, producing a crude approximation of the various "spanish offset" grips. The old-style Belgian is very much a power grip, and best suited to those with large, broad hands. As for the cut-away grip, well-- frankly, it sucks.

For that matter, I honestly think all of the spanish-offset/centrulo style grips suck. Anybody who is viewing them as a halfway compromise between an orthpedic and a French grip really doesn't understand the hand & finger mechanics of gripping a foil or epee. With neither the weight of the pommel nor the grip-body resting in the hand to counterbalance the blade, they force the thumb, fore- and middle-fingers to do that task, which limits the ability to use those fingers for fine point control. They're the only sort of grip I'd ever flatly advise someone against. If you're looking for something that's sort of a "transitional" between a French and Visconti or Belgian grips, the Russian is the one you want.

-Dave

[I_luv_saber]

Of course you could do saber and not worry about grips...

[John Nguyen]

I like the "Baby Russian" that TCA has. Its very very comfy and not like its big brother, which is like holding a 2x4