Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

danp · 11-13-2003, 07:49 PM

Hi All,

Have there been alternate foil tip designs attempted, and if so, why did they fail to catch on in lieu of the current tips? I've been staring at my foil tip in amazement that there isn't something more robust, simple, and easier to maintain in the heat of a tournament.

There must be a history - surely I'm not the only person to have ventured into this line of thought :-)

In the past few days I've done CAD drawings on at least 4 designs that (on the surface) appear to be easier for even a novice to maintain, and possibly even more robust. This seems like low-hanging fruit on the "make our lives easier" tree.. No?

Many Thanks,
-Dan

DHCJr · 11-13-2003, 08:05 PM

There are a number of designs, so I am not sure which ones you know about. There is the British, which is solid and the screw goes into the barrel, German, which has a ring and the screw goes into the barrel, French, where the screw goes into the ring on the tip; 3 different screwless designs. They each has their advantages and they are not that difficult.

On your design, first of all does it follow the rules? The dimension, do not leave a lot of play. How much would it cost? Remember there is tool and startup costs.

There was a blade design and tip that ran down the center of the blade. Both the blade and the wire being loose, lasted much longer. The problem was the design was patented, so the FIE made it illegal.

If you have a good design and it were cheap enough, you would have buyers.

danp · 11-13-2003, 08:45 PM

If you have any information about where I might see pictures or diagrams of the 3 screwless designs, most appreciated. Alternately, just a place where I can buy them or a description.

The FIE won't give the OK on any product with a patent eh... Well, I'm all for open source I suppose - and I understand the motivation... although, it does stifle innovation.

In any case, patents are not a good motivation. The better companies out-design and manufacture their competitors in this global economy anyway ;-)

Many thanks for the quick response,
-Dan

[quote]Originally posted by DHCJr
[b]There are a number of designs, so I am not sure which ones you know about. There is the British, which is solid and the screw goes into the barrel, German, which has a ring and the screw goes into the barrel, French, where the screw goes into the ring on the tip; 3 different screwless designs. They each has their advantages and they are not that difficult.

neevel · 11-13-2003, 11:30 PM

The Schermasport is sold in the US through American Fencers Supply (or you can order from Negrini), and the
Estoc point through Swordmasters. The other screwless point is an older Russian design which nobody to my knowledge still sells in the US, but is similar in basic concept to the other two. Schermasport also makes a screw foil point akin to the Leon Paul points (i.e., the screws project into the barrel and retain the tip flange directly, rather than retaining a sliding collar).

If you search back on this bulletin board, Joe Biebel posted reviews of the Estoc point-- he found them lacking in durability. He was recently sent a couple of improved examples to try out.
The Schermasport I've heard some good and some bad opinions about. They are rather pricey, even in comparison to Uhlmann V2A points.

There's no reason why a patented point design wouldn't fly, so long as it used the standard, specified threading an could thus be mounted on any blade. The Schermasport screwless points, for example, are patented.

One key reason for some designs being popular is simple standardization and availability of parts. You'll be able to find parts for German or French points anywhere (either from vendors or buying/"borrowing" from individuals), whereas finding a spare Schermasport O-ring if you forgot to bring extras may be difficult.

-Dave

MyraTrue · 11-14-2003, 01:21 AM

Foil tips... complex? *lol* Well, you've got a point, but it always seemed to me that there were more problems with epees than foils. I've never, in my year and a half of owning my electric foil, had to do anything with the tip. I've got to adjust springs for weights and shims, and check my forever vanishing tip screws in epee every tournament I fence.

But I agree that it does seem like there's GOT to be something better out there.

I once had a friend who's parents asked him why electric fencing equipment cost so much. His reply? "Well, imagine that you have this highly sensitive piece of electric equipment... that you use to beat someone about the head with."

danp · 11-14-2003, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MyraTrue

"Well, imagine that you have this highly sensitive piece of electric equipment... that you use to beat someone about the head with."

LOL! Along those same lines, I was trying to fix my glasses this morning after losing one of the frame screws and thought "Wow, it's nice to have a LARGER screw to get my fingers around".

Thanks for the info neevel, that's just what I needed. It strikes me that the longevity of the point is important, but also the ability to fix it on the fly when things go wrong. It would be great to just pop out the old damaged tip and slam in a new one at a tournament between bouts.

I guess by 'complex', I mean that it shouldn't require a jewelers screwdriver, a pair of tweezers, a magnifying glass, an 8/16th barrel reamer and the hands of a surgeon to fix what could only be described as a "really fancy button" :-)

But then I tend to oversimplify things a lot.

You guys rock,
-Dan

DHCJr · 12-02-2003, 05:34 PM

You may need to be thinking about redesigning that Foil tip. But I just checked the FIE site and one of the items is a new tip. If it is the one I am thinking of, it has a 2mm travel before it goes off. (Epee has only 1mm travel.)

http://www.fie.ch/download/press/200...%20Leipzig.pdf

Windsor · 12-02-2003, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DHCJr
You may need to be thinking about redesigning that Foil tip. But I just checked the FIE site and one of the items is a new tip. If it is the one I am thinking of, it has a 2mm travel before it goes off. (Epee has only 1mm travel.)

http://www.fie.ch/download/press/200...%20Leipzig.pdf

This must be related to the whole anti-flick movement that I've been hearing about.

The0ne · 12-02-2003, 07:01 PM

I would throw hard, sharp objects at Rene Roch if that is the tip that they want to advocate, and I will fence Sabre.

DHCJr · 12-02-2003, 07:08 PM

Stand in line! He is also the one that is forcing the visor masks over the objections of the Medical and SEMI commissions. He is the one to make France/Lame the 'Official Supplier to the FIE'. He has a long list of questionable dealings in my opinion.

JAySE SUiCiDE · 12-06-2003, 11:08 PM

Quote:

I've got to adjust springs for weights and shims, and check my forever vanishing tip screws in epee every tournament I fence.

MT - when you're not fencing in competitions, try putting some sort of tape (electrical, athletic, etc) over the screws so they dont fall out..or, if they do, then they're still on the tape when you take it off. then take the tape off whenever you go to competitions. that should help you to keep more screws.

~Jes