Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Feanor · 11-11-2003, 04:34 PM

I just took receipt of a new set of foils from Germany (Uhlmann) and one of the foils was a competition spare FIE weapon... This particular weapon came with what was described in the packing list as a "100MM lightweight Competition Guard" and has me at a loss since I didn't specifiy anything other than the default Inox Stainless... The finish looks very much like brushed aluminum and I was a bit despondent not at all liking the lack of durability of the aluminum guards...

On examining it closely though (besides noting how much lighter it was) It didn't have the same characteristics as the other aluminum guards I have seen (the rolled edge was much more "finished" and while I can take both hands and with effort, physically bend an aluminum guard, This one was FAR stiffer and more resistant to attempts at flexing it...

I'm wondering if this is indeed a Titanium guard, and having never used one before, I was curious about its durability under hard use...

Anyone have experience with them? There is no doubt they are much lighter, though I miss the stainless shine

I'm still partially of the mind that this might just be a much better quality (thicker?)Aluminum guard, but F-L has always "upgraded" products for me and never the reverse, which leads me to believe it might be Titanium since that would seem to be an upgrade...

Thanks in Advance!

Mergs · 11-12-2003, 09:41 AM

A good way to check is to weigh it and compare it's weight to a known stainless and/or aluminum guard. If it is indeed titanium, it should be roughly half the weight of the stainless and roughly twice the weight of the aluminum guard, densities of Ti ~ .16 #/in^3, Stainless ~.29 -.32 #/in^3 and Al ~.09 #/in^3. Of course, that will vary with alloy, but general a good rule of thumb.

Or if you don't have a scale that goes that low, just build a simple balance scale.

I would be suprised if it was Titanium, though, if nothing more for the cost. Ti doesn't normally come in sheet, which is how you would form a guard. And since I don't have my materials references with me, i can't verify it's formability index, but knowing what it takes to machine the stuff, I would say it is probably pretty low. You may have a stronger grade of aluminum alloy.

Good luck.

rsy · 11-12-2003, 09:51 AM

Feanor,

If the guard on your new weapon looks like the one at the link below, it is a Vniti one-piece. Empirically, the strength to weight ratio on the Vniti is the best I have seen. It is as light as the Leon Paul monel guard, but stronger. Even my son, when he utilizes what he calls his "Russian technique", has never been able to deform one.

Vniti foil guard

-r

Feanor · 11-12-2003, 01:18 PM

Thank you for you help Mergs and RSY, it looks like what I might have is just a much better quality than previous, aluminum guard... Perhaps it is a different alloy of aluminum, which would account for its better strength.

I'm assuming it is aluminum now because it is not one piece, which I've heard the Titanium guards always come as... The one I have has the 4 flattened rivets at the reinforcing (mounting ring) at the center of the guard...

I'm hoping that it will prove to be a decent performer, it is most definitely lighter than the stainless guards, and of course, its not a huge hassle to replace it with stainless or even that very trick looking titanium guard that was posted at the duellist site

Thanks again for the info!

Rolls · 11-12-2003, 01:26 PM

Anyone know how much and where you can get that Titanium foil guard from? Perferably, a US retailer.

Thanks,
Rolls.

Almightynoitall · 11-12-2003, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolls
Anyone know how much and where you can get that Titanium foil guard from? Perferably, a US retailer.

Thanks,
Rolls.

They've come standard with everything I've ever gotten from FenceSmart... (complete foils, left handed, Russian grip)... They sure take a beating!!! I think it took three weeks of serious heavy (2-4 hours a day) before I even noticed it was starting to scuff and scar the guard...

Feanor · 11-12-2003, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Almightynoitall
They've come standard with everything I've ever gotten from FenceSmart... (complete foils, left handed, Russian grip)... They sure take a beating!!! I think it took three weeks of serious heavy (2-4 hours a day) before I even noticed it was starting to scuff and scar the guard...

I would have thought it was an odd move to put titanium alloy guards on complete foils in substitution for the INOX stainless, but aside from the titanium guards supposedly being more durable than stainless and lighter, they are also LESS expensive?!?! (At least from Duellist in England)

Inox stainless guards from Uhlmann (very good quality) are around $10-11 while the titanium one's are about $8-9 how can this be if titanium is supposedly a more "exotic" material given its light weight and durability? Do the sellers of these guards have titanium ore deposits in their basements? :P

Have a good one!

whtouche · 11-12-2003, 04:38 PM

While we're on the subject of titanium, I have a couple of sabre related questions:
Does anyone know where one could procure titanium sabre guards? The combination of light weight and durability would be invaluable. I got a lightweight leon paul guard once, but it was aluminum and took the worst beating of any guard Ive seen.

Also, does anyone know if there is anyone that produces titanium blades?
drool..

rsy · 11-12-2003, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolls
Anyone know how much and where you can get that Titanium foil guard from? Perferably, a US retailer.

Rolls,

I don't know if the Vniti guard is made from titanium (Vniti's web site says they are made from hardened aluminum alloy), but it does look very cool and it is very strong and light.

BG might sell them. They have a picture of one on their web site next to their BG one piece, but there is no indication if it is the Vniti guard. If it is, it is cheap ($8). Give them a call.

Blade does sell them for $15.00 I have linked the page below:
Blade

Another good guard is Leon Paul's Super Strong Lightweight. I think it may be a hair lighter than the Vniti, and it is very strong, but I don't think it is as durable as the Vniti. Bewteen the two I vote for the Vniti.

Let me know how it works out.

-r

Pho · 11-13-2003, 01:26 AM

I actually use the epee version of the one piece guard that you have shown. I figure if you are doing epee, the guards take a lot more abuse than foil guards (assuming they are made of the same stuff). That being said, the vniti guard takes an inordinate amount of abuse. I usually alternate between the pbt aluminium guards and the vniti one piece guards. After more than a few bell shots, I find that I the pbt guards are pretty dented. The Vniti guards however have yet to dent under heavy use (fencing three to four times a week for about six months now).

MyraTrue · 11-13-2003, 01:56 AM

Pho- I've been wondering how those one piece guards hold up. I've got some that have been dented so badly that the rivets are coming loose, and this makes them illegal. They're only practice weapons, but I've thought of one-pieceing...

How are they weight wise?

Myra

noodle · 11-13-2003, 02:14 AM

these guards, foil and epee, are definitely worth it. they're a little heavier than the aluminum counterparts but definitely lighter than the normal bells. and mine has a few scratches but no dents. bought it at the KC NAC and have been fencing regularly with it since.

Pho · 11-13-2003, 03:52 PM

Weight wise, the epee ones seem a little heavier just because they are a little thicker, but I weighed them with a kitchen scale and to my surprise they weigh about the same as a lightweight aluminium guard from pbt and blue gauntlet, the blue gauntlet weighs in at about 109 grams, the pbt at about 110 while the vniti one weighs in at about 112 grams. So go figure whether you can handle the extra 2 or 3 grams.....

Rolls · 11-13-2003, 04:42 PM

Well, I defintely will be purchasing the Vniti guard. I'll probably get somewhere from 2-4 of them. That would most likely last me for a LONG time. I have some cheap guards that are banged up pretty badly and they have lasted almost forever. I just want to upgrade so that I NEVER have to buy new guards and so that I can always have them looking decent.

Thanks for the information.

Quote:

(Vniti's web site says they are made from hardened aluminum alloy)

What's the link to their website? Is it in English?

Rolls.

rsy · 11-13-2003, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolls
What's the link to their website? Is it in English?

Rolls- Here is the link to the Vniti web site, such as it...Viniti USA
-r

firebrand · 11-14-2003, 02:35 PM

I have heard that the Titanium guards are meant to be heavy, from the Australian distributor. He prefers Aluminium. When it wears he adds a steal washer.

Also Titanium if I'm right is a yellow metal! It could be an alloy of Titanium. Jets are made of Duralium, ie Titanium and Aluminium mixed. But with new technology there are many such possibilities. Sometimes they use Magnesium in them.

Feanor · 11-14-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by firebrand
I have heard that the Titanium guards are meant to be heavy, from the Australian distributor. He prefers Aluminium. When it wears he adds a steal washer.

Also Titanium if I'm right is a yellow metal! It could be an alloy of Titanium. Jets are made of Duralium, ie Titanium and Aluminium mixed. But with new technology there are many such possibilities. Sometimes they use Magnesium in them.

Odd that the lighter, stronger metal would be used to make heavier guards? Why wouldn't they just thicken the stainless steel ones and have essentially the same effect? Oh well, not that I am doubting the information, I've heard of stranger things

If I remember correctly, the titanium ore is yellowish in color when it reaches higher levels of refinement, but that the metal itself when finished is... well... metal colored

I have several machined titanium pieces that I use in one particular hobby of mine, and they look exactly like the stainless steel pieces they replaced only they are much much lighter...

The info that I have picked up has led me to believe that though titanium is "stronger and Lighter" than steel "stronger" is a very vague term in materials engineering since there is tensile strength, sheer strength... etc etc... I'm told that titanium is more "brittle" and "stiffer" than steel and that alloys of it are created to mitigate undesireable characteristics when required (titanium-beryllium alloy), but this makes the metal a bit heavier and more expensive... This is probably why it would not be a good idea to make foil blades out of pure titanium when compared to good quality steel and why they would be insanely expensive if alloys were created to give it the same flexibility as steel, and also why I'm confused as to why titanium guards cost less in some places than the stainless ones

Have a good one all!

Artisan · 11-15-2003, 02:32 AM

Ok... here's my 1.5 cents worth.
Titanium and steel are almost the same density - steel is a little bit heavier than titanium. Titanium is stronger, so a part can be made with thinner material and have similar strength but be much lighter than a corresponding steel part. Aluminum is 1/3 the density of steel, but much weaker, so a part must be thicker. Thats why a steel guard doesn't weigh 3x what an aluminum guard does, and why a titanium guard is somewhere between the two in weight, but is strongest of all three.

Titanium looks "white" like steel and aluminum. Titanium-Nitride is gold colored and is a very thin (microns) coating appied to cutting tools to prevent wear. Pure titanium, like pure aluminum is softer and more ductile than various alloyed compositions. There is no such thing as pure steel, since steel is by definition an alloy. A common alloy of titanium has aluminum as well as several other metals in it in trace quantities. Duraluminum does not have titanium in it, but does have silicon. There are alloys of aluminum that can be heat treated and made quite hard - harder than some soft steels. Metals have many properties. Hardness, "strength", ductility, brittleness are only a few and only slightly related to each other.

The Vniti site states that the guards sold by Blade are aluminum alloy. The Guards sold by the duelist may or may not be made with titanium alloy. They may just be steel with a trace of titanium (not uncommon). They seem rather inexpensive to be made primarily of Ti.

Rolls: One thing to consider if you buy a "last forever dent proof guard" You may be trading durability for sending more impact into your hand. The energy absorbed in forming that nice point sized dent is energy not going into you fingers, wrist and arm. Thats why are cars designed to absorb impact by crumpling instead of transfering the full impact to the occumpants.

rsy · 11-15-2003, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artisan
Rolls: One thing to consider if you buy a "last forever dent proof guard" You may be trading durability for sending more impact into your hand. The energy absorbed in forming that nice point sized dent is energy not going into you fingers, wrist and arm. Thats why are cars designed to absorb impact by crumpling instead of transfering the full impact to the occumpants.

Good point.

-r

Artisan · 11-17-2003, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artisan

The Vniti site states that the guards sold by Blade are aluminum alloy. The Guards sold by the duelist may or may not be made with titanium alloy. They may just be steel with a trace of titanium (not uncommon). They seem rather inexpensive to be made primarily of Ti.

I just got email back from The Duelist....

"I can confirm that we buy our guards from Vniti. I do not have an exact for them but there is very little difference in weight between the guards of Allstar (lightweight version) and these guards. Shipping guards to the US is not expensive- dependant on weight and quantity. All our prices are VAT inclusive so you would have to take 17.5% off the retail figure. Hope this all helps. "
- Duelist Sales