Colorful uniforms

[The Messenjah]

I'm a soccer player at heart, so I ask you guys (and girls for all you touchy chicks out there) Would sponsors on the shoulder perhaps be too much? It might bring some major money into this thing.

I'm definitely down with club colors, though.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by I_luv_saber
One time at a tourney, my Mom looked for me for nearly a half hour before finding me.

THIS is your big justification for color? So your mother can find you?!? Come, now!

And you think everyone else ought to be forced to accept your preferences, in order to make things marginally more convenient for your mother? Or even for you?

Can you say "self-involved"?

[I_luv_saber]

Originally posted by Inquartata
THIS is your big justification for color? So your mother can find you?!? Come, now!

And you think everyone else ought to be forced to accept your preferences, in order to make things marginally more convenient for your mother? Or even for you?

Can you say "self-involved"?

No, I've already given you justification for color. This is 1 personal reason, and I am sure I'm not the only one who has had people looking for them, yes even their mothers. My big justification, really! You're taking this one post made as my big justification? I think you're searching for one plausible defense (which you still haven't found).
Can you say "desperate"?

[I_luv_saber]

Originally posted by Event Horizon
Using White is tradition. It also keeps everything simple and uniform. A nice nuetral color that gives the sport a look of professionalism and seriousness. A nice level playing field with minimal distraction, where skill and ability is the factor that is admired and respected, more than how a person looks. Instead of concentrating on what someone looks like, you can concentrate how someone fences. There's no prejudging of the participants. Of course this is just my interpretation of...a lofty ideal of fencing...more or less.

1) Using color is tradition as far back as knights. 2) Simple and uniform does not mean "bland". 3) Simple club/country colors can be simple and uniform as well. 4) Level playing field? When dueling was legal, they had colored clothing. If it affected their fencing they were dead... they got used to it real fast.

[Inquartata]

All of those are personal opinions. "Bland", etc. I still have seen no compelling logical reasons to toss tradition in favor of personal preferences for colors.

You want colors, I don't. Those are just preferences, and neither ought to be granted supremacy without a solid reason or three.
( To that end I have avoided adducing "I don't like the idea of colors and designs personally" as a reason for keeping the status quo. )

The reasons AGAINST color include, but are not limited to, tradition, uniformity, group solidarity, and the additional costs associated with change, ie monetary expenditures and increased time of personnel, increased complexity in dealing with the inevitable multiplicity of rule changes in response to people feeling out the boundaries of what is allowed, in good taste, etc.

All I've really heard adduced on the pro side of the argument are normative "reasons" like "It'll be more fun", "lots of people
( and I ) want it", "Other sports use colors", "White is boring", and the marginal "It'll make us more recognizeable". Plus some unproven assertions such as "It will help fencing be more photogenic".

Where are the hard, cold rationales for change?

[sawsehel]

*desperately trying to find some middle ground*

So Inq,

Would you be for or against having team colors?
(Mainly white uniform with maybe a few stripes of color
and a team emblem.)


Since there are so many things we all disagree on,
what DO we all agree on?

[Army Fencer]

Warning! This is a little deeper than the usual "epee is better than foil because..." Read at your own risk.

For clarity sake, let me sum up the leading arguments. Of course, there are shades of each based on individual beliefs.

1. White is right. It's traditional, cost-effective, and there's no need to change what's already fixed.

2. Let a little sunshine in. This is the via media between arguments 1 and 3. It accepts the status quo as it is today with a dab of color and nothing more. People can choose a small degree of color on their own budget if they wish, within strict guidelines.

3. Color freedom. Argues that allowing completely free individual choice in determining the color of their uniform will increase the popularity of the sport. While inexpensive, it is prone to abuse.

4. Team colors. Team unity improves competition and regional spirit. It argues that it will also draw more people to the sport because their teams are more easily recognized. This would be the most expensive path of those presented.

I mention cost, but let us for a moment disregard that key issue. I believe this boils down to a difference in philosophical beliefs.

Argument 1 believes in maintaining tight conformity across the entire group.
(Let us disregard Argument 2 for the moment.)
Argument 3 regards personal autonomy more important than holding fast to the group organization.
Argument 4 holds that conformity within smaller units has the highest pay-off for the organization as a whole.

I believe that holding fast to tradition (argument 1) is ultimately bound to failure because people enjoy their freedom too much. They want to express themselves, especially living in a democratic state. The obvious next step is argument 2--a splash of color, but maintaining the status quo.

At the other end of the spectrum, I believe that allowing complete free will (argument 3) is bound to hurt the organization as a whole. Complete freedom is bound to decay to anarchy and the ultimate Hobbesian state. (Okay... a touch of hyperbole, but no one can question the potential for abuse.)

Allowing controlled free will (argument 4), allows for people some amount of control, but remains within a system of checks and balances. Additionally, competing small units have a great potential for improving the organization as a whole (not to mention attract more attention to the local/regional/national team from outside sources).

I must concede that this last path is more expensive than the others. I do see within it tremendous potential, however. For this, and this alone, I believe that it should be looked into objectively and seriously. Until then, we will have to be happy with the status quo of blue socks, piping, and happy face masks.

Okay, I'm done pontificating.

PS. Inq, I know I'm giving you plenty of room to cut me down like a sabreist on caffiene. Have fun!

[lochinvar]

Originally posted by Army Fencer

PS. Inq, I know I'm giving you plenty of room to cut me down like a sabreist on caffiene. Have fun!

How convenient, since Inq is a saberist on caffiene!

I will try to formulate a more serious contribution to the discussion later.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

My Idea was that we have feathers on our masks, sort of like a native american feather bonnet. I also think that we should wear black n' gold spandex jumpsuits instead of knick's, and that we should have anti gravity boots and that the piste should not be a long strip, but a 10 foot by 10 foot circle. The scoring system would be wireless, and the piste would have plexiglass walls that run up to the ceiling so you can run up the walss with your boots ala crouching tiger. Kudos.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by sawsehel
*desperately trying to find some middle ground*

So Inq,

Would you be for or against having team colors?

I'm in favor of it...on warm-ups.

(Mainly white uniform with maybe a few stripes of color
and a team emblem.)

This is very nearly what we have now. You can have the national emblem ( stars and stripes logo ) and, I think, pinstriping. Or maybe that last is just the first sign of people "pushing the envelope".

Personally I don't care for the team-emblem idea. Fencing isn't primarily a team sport---and what about the fencers who aren't ON a team? Would we allow all members of a salle to use it, or only the official team from a salle? Or would it be national teams? And would national team members from disparate salles have to/get to use TWO logos? Who will adjudicate conflicts between logos? Will we need a College of Heralds?

Since there are so many things we all disagree on,
what DO we all agree on?

That sabre is the best weapon to fence?

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Army Fencer
Of course, there are shades of each based on individual beliefs.

Let us hope they are pastel shades only.

1. White is right. It's traditional, cost-effective, and there's no need to change what's already fixed.

There's one more pro, which I forgot last night. It's less applicable in foil and especially sabre than in epee, but only marginally so:

White provides a better background for referees looking at blade actions.

To some extent this is also true of the silvery shades of lames, and indeed there are some lames which approach white in coloration. But at least in epee and foil it is easier to see the contrast between dark blade and white uniform than against any other color. (Of course, in epee blade actions scarcely matter, there being no ROW to cloud issues, but in foil, well, imagine fencing with one of those blued blades and finding yourself facing an opponent with dark blue lame and jacket. Or a gold blade against a gold lame and jacket. )

Now that I think about it, gold blades vs Infinity lames---not good...

Team unity improves competition and regional spirit.

Does it? Really?

And if it does, is it only at the cost of the national and international unity conferred by the ubiquity of white. ( Accept the premises, accept the conclusions! )

Shall I use the "B" word? As in "the Balkanization of fencing"?

I believe that holding fast to tradition (argument 1) is ultimately bound to failure because people enjoy their freedom too much. They want to express themselves, especially living in a democratic state.

Two points here:

(1) This is not a certainty, inasmuch as there are many other areas where traditions have NOT inevitably yielded to the yearning for "personal freedom". You have only to look at religion or any longstanding human institution.

(2) What of the fencers either NOT living in democratic states or living in democratic states where the prevailing ethos' are much more group- than individually-oriented?

Complete freedom is bound to decay to anarchy and the ultimate Hobbesian state.

FINALLY someone understands!

[lochinvar]

Inq, you of all people should comprehend the difference between "understanding the arguement" and "being convinced of the applicability of (or truth of) the arguement"...

When all is said and done, I'm still going to paint a maple leaf on my mask.

That way, you'll know exactly who you're slashing at if you see me at a tournament! (And I don't mean on the piste, either...)

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by lochinvar
I'm still going to paint a maple leaf on my mask.

That way, you'll know exactly who you're slashing at if you see me at a tournament! (And I don't mean on the piste, either...)

I'll be too busy curling up in a twitching ball on the floor and moaning in appalled consternation...

[felicote]

I agree with the idea of having colors in uniforms but only to an extent. I think the solution should be to have white jackets and knickers but with designs.
If uniforms are all white, sometimes it is hard to find the people from your club in a tournament. But on the other hand if every one has solid colors a tyournament would appear to be a parade or some kind of joke.

[I_luv_saber]

Thank you for the summarization Army Fencer. That contained almost all the points all of us made. I see no further reason to continue discussing it for now. We'd just be repeating what we already said, just in different words. So I leave this discussion with my final point, one more time.
I believe we should have the freedom to wear colors and create our own little "ensembles". Or team colors.

But what will the rules be, and how will we know where to draw the line?
No idea. But I trust we could do so. And I think in the end, it would help the sport, and would be worth it.

What about tradition?
We have enough tradition to go around. There is no need for this tradition anymore, in my opinion. I also think the all-whites promotes that horrible "aristocrat" stereotype of fencing. Fencing is not what it was. Yes, it will always be a proud tradition, but remember that it is now, in addition, a sport... for better or for worse. If we kept totally with tradition, life itself would be anarchy.

What about money, or fencers who don't belong to a team?
Then wear white. I just want the choice. Anyway, these are all details that will be worked out over time. My grandma always said, "You can't make supper before you have the ingrediants." Same applies here, basics first, then work into details.

Those are my main points. We have attacked parried riposted, counter-parried riposted, back and forth. There's nothing really left to add. Have fun!

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by felicote

If uniforms are all white, sometimes it is hard to find the people from your club in a tournament. But on the other hand if every one has solid colors a tyournament would appear to be a parade or some kind of joke.

Perhaps we could each wear a harness which would permit the display of an individual or team flag on our backs, as with feudal Japanese ashigaru? You know, the short pole that held a flag up above their heads. You could take it off when fencing and reinsert it between bouts, so that people could find you more easily, if that's really such a big problem...

[Event Horizon]

Originally posted by I_luv_saber

What about tradition?
We have enough tradition to go around. There is no need for this tradition anymore, in my opinion. I also think the all-whites promotes that horrible "aristocrat" stereotype of fencing. Fencing is not what it was. Yes, it will always be a proud tradition, but remember that it is now, in addition, a sport... for better or for worse. If we kept totally with tradition, life itself would be anarchy.

I know Iluvsaber isn't going to post anymore and that's too bad cuz I don't see how keeping with tradition will result in anarchy. It would have the opposite effect by giving meaning to it. I'm not sure that is what he really meant. Oh well...


Hey Loch...what if many others paint maple leaf's on their masks...how we gonna know it's really u?


ashigaru eh? well, i'm sure we would have plenty of complaints about that too.


As for the sponsership logos on the kits, I'm against it personally. The reason being is that I don't believe we should be walking commericals for these companies. I see their advertisments everywhere and I'm sick of it.

The USFA would just spend the sponsership money on the elites and us lowly Div III mases won't get squat.

[Rogue]

Originally posted by Inquartata
I dunno, I hear a lot of fun being made of bobsledders' outfits, for one ( "body condoms", etc. ).





Well, the first of these almost requires garish colors, otherwise they'd just blend into the snow. ( Can you imagine fencers in their whites on a winter mountainside? )





This is almost certainly the root of the issue. The other reasons are just camouflage for the rampant "Look at me!" attitude which has so infected modern societies.

Now, your tastes may be refined and restrained, you may only want a stripe and a "tasteful" design. But you cannot legislate taste or restraint, and there are others whose ideas for their kit will, I promise you, be FAR from tasteful. So you show up in your understated elegance, and find yourself facing a guy with a "one finger salute" painted on his mask, and a black hypnodisk painted on the chest of his vomit-colored lame, with one sleeve tartan, one striped, one leg polka dots and the other paisley, and all in different colors. Who wants THAT?

Here, Here!

[lochinvar]

Originally posted by Event Horizon
Hey Loch...what if many others paint maple leaf's on their masks...how we gonna know it's really u?

Easy. I'll be the one in the neon green knickers.