Colorful uniforms

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by lochinvar
[Byou would never stoop to the wearing of chains! )[/b]

Not unless it's mail, anyway.

Trust was out of town that day visiting his mother.

Did he have fund doing it?

I can't imagine what "resources" you think will be stretched by any of this: Time? Money? The Judicial Talents of our Esteemed Directors? What? Throw me a bone, here...

All of the above?

Plus, it would draw attention and resources away from the support of the elite cadre and officials. Can't have that.

Run by people unqualified to deal with problems? Who do you think deals with problems, now? What would make these "new problems" qualitatively any different from the problems they already deal with?

Not different---additional. When you've got chimps doing a job, do you think it will make things better to give them MORE to do?

(And, Inq--"fripperies"...!? I mean, really!)

Yeees, that's right, fripperies! I said it!

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Delmont
No point banning something because a minority will abuse it.

Well, you might want to shoot the FIE a note about all their proposed rule changes, then. I'm sure they'll listen.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by lochinvar
Tradition doesn't grow in a vacuum; the original rules were put there for a reason. As reasons change or become moot, the rules should change, too.

If it's for a solid reason affecting FENCING, yes. If it's just so a few malcontents can have a new stage for displaying their peacock feathers, I don't see the point. Change for the sake of change is just stupid...and wasteful. Unless of course you're in the equipment business.

I'm all for tradition, but not when it makes no sense and doesn't enhance the sport.

And the addition of color will do that? I don't see how THAT will enhance the sport, either. Nor does it inherently make more "sense" than the current status quo.

[I_luv_saber]

Originally posted by Inquartata
You'd be opening a legal Pandora's box. The more you let things proliferate and diverge, the more "edge cases" you'll have to deal with...by passing specific rules. Already you've suggested two. Now, "obscene"...but if it's in Japanese kanji? Or Cyrillic? Or Klingon? "Oops, we have to revise the rule again, guys."

What about a swastika on your mask? Not obscene, but certainly offensive. Or IS it? Is it really just a fylfot? Native American symbol, heeeey, can't mess with my freedom of religion!

Three colors? How many SHADES of each? How about in combination?

Why open that can of worms, just to suit people's fashion urges? Don't we have enough trouble figuring out the subtleties of the FENCING rules as it is?


(Urk...feel..dudgeon...rising....! )

Yup, that's true. But still, I think it would be worth it. Nothing "obscene" includes every language of course. But I see your point on the "offensive" remark. That would be a toughie. But again, I think it would be worth it.

[I_luv_saber]

Originally posted by Event Horizon
You can have some color in your kit. Next time you buy a lame get a colored one. Or buy some colorful socks. You don't always have to wear white, white, white. At the local Salle, who cares what you wear. I've seen people in Jeans, sweats, shorts. But at a sanctioned tourney there should be uniformity and cohesion. And what about tradition? Doesn't that account for something? Well, probably not for most people. I think I'm in the minority on this.

Delmont: I think there will be more than just a few who will push the envelope. As far as those who refuse to follow protocol during and after a bout should be called on it (carded if at a tourney). It seems though that alot of it goes unpunised.

Loch: My point is that once you start relaxing the boundaries then where do you draw the line? Where will it all end?


I don't see how having color is going to make the sport better or make one a better Fencer. Just 'cause you look pretty doesn't mean you'll fence better. Although, I guess one could look strange enough to distract their opponent enough to win a bout.

Tradition? Tradition? This sport is jam packed full of it! There's plenty of tradition. True, we SHOULD keep with tradition, but does that mean we should fence with sharp swords?! No, there has to be change in a sport. They evolve. Now I'm not saying we hafta go fence with lightsabers, but sports evolve. Sorry, that's how it works. How does color help the NFL play better football? Well for one, it would be very hard to tell who's team is winning in all-whites. especially on TV. But mostly, it's for looks. It looks cool, and should not affect your playing if there are rules in place. There should be a standard list of colors, and you may compile a "ensemble" out of those. With a maximum number of shades. Similar rules for masks. As for getting people mixed up if they choose the same colors, can it possibly be any worse than all-whites!!!

[40Saberthieves]

How would have a rule saying "you cant have something obscene" be any different from "you cant curse out the director"?

Just black card those people and move on.

If for no other reason, color would help identify people.

"oh, there's the guy with the tiger mask, i remember him", etc

[Army Fencer]

Originally posted by Event Horizon
I agree with Inq. about opening up a pandora's box with the color issue. There will always be people pushing the envelope and challenging the rules of what's allowed....

My point is that once you start relaxing the boundaries then where do you draw the line? Where will it all end?

Who choses the warm-ups for teams? Are any of them offensive or go far beyond what people accept as appropriate? I think there are ways to make it work without making fencing "flippant." Make the club coach responsible for what their fencers wear!

Originally posted by Inquartata
And the addition of color will do that [enhance the sport]? I don't see how THAT will enhance the sport, either. Nor does it inherently make more "sense" than the current status quo.

Inq, you seem to be resisting change solely because you want to resist change. Traditions are important, but when they extend past their utility, they are meaningless. There's no point to sticking to a tradition so closely that you impale yourself on it.

And if there is an opportunity to draw more athletes to the sport, you ARE enhancing it. I don't want spiderman costumes any more than the next serious, competitive fencer. I just want more serious, competitive fencers and I think a splash of color would help.

[Event Horizon]

Originally posted by lochinvar
How was the line drawn originally?

Tradition doesn't grow in a vacuum; the original rules were put there for a reason. As reasons change or become moot, the rules should change, too. I'm all for tradition, but not when it makes no sense and doesn't enhance the sport.

As to where the line will be drawn, it will be drawn where it has always been drawn--where people of good sense decide to draw it; where reasonable folks decide that this won't hurt anything, but that will.

Good sense is like good writing: It's hard to define, but you know it when you see it.

But it's all subjective. Good sense (or in this case good taste) varies from person to person. Once you have redrawn the line, then it just makes it easier to redraw it again and again and again. In any organization not everyone will be satisfied with the current system so what shall they do? Try to satisfy everyone's whims/desires?

You're right, tradition doesn't grow in a vacuum. However, tradition and protocol give the sport substance and legitimacy. Sometimes they don't make sense and may not be practical but how often are traditions practical?

[Event Horizon]

Originally posted by I_luv_saber
Tradition? Tradition? This sport is jam packed full of it! There's plenty of tradition. True, we SHOULD keep with tradition, but does that mean we should fence with sharp swords?! No, there has to be change in a sport. They evolve. Now I'm not saying we hafta go fence with lightsabers, but sports evolve. Sorry, that's how it works. How does color help the NFL play better football? Well for one, it would be very hard to tell who's team is winning in all-whites. especially on TV. But mostly, it's for looks. It looks cool, and should not affect your playing if there are rules in place. There should be a standard list of colors, and you may compile a "ensemble" out of those. With a maximum number of shades. Similar rules for masks. As for getting people mixed up if they choose the same colors, can it possibly be any worse than all-whites!!!

True sports evolve and that's not a bad thing. It's necessary at times. Too much change too often isn't good. With the major sports organizations how often do you see them change? Not very often.

[Event Horizon]

Originally posted by RogueNine
How would have a rule saying "you cant have something obscene" be any different from "you cant curse out the director"?

Just black card those people and move on.

If for no other reason, color would help identify people.

"oh, there's the guy with the tiger mask, i remember him", etc

But will it be an automatic carded infraction? Not everyone gets carded when they should. Just look at the other threads about this and you notice that not all the cardable offenses get carded. And do you think someone is really going to card over color? Most people think it's a moot point anyway so they'll probably won't bother with it. It'll become a loophole to use on someone if you wanted to take that person out of the competiton.

[lochinvar]

Originally posted by Event Horizon
But it's all subjective. Good sense (or in this case good taste) varies from person to person. Once you have redrawn the line, then it just makes it easier to redraw it again and again and again. In any organization not everyone will be satisfied with the current system so what shall they do? Try to satisfy everyone's whims/desires?

You're right, tradition doesn't grow in a vacuum. However, tradition and protocol give the sport substance and legitimacy. Sometimes they don't make sense and may not be practical but how often are traditions practical?

So, are you seriously suggesting that it's not all subjective now? One person's definition of "attack into preparation" is another person's definition of "counterattack without parry"...

If we were to follow your reasoning vigorously, then we would never change anything. I don't know about you, but I would find that irksome and tedious and--eventually--quite boring.

I submit that a few "fripperies" won't hurt the sport or the tradition, and might even make it a teensy-weensy bit more fun. (It might even lighten Inquartata up a few notches, although I fear he's probably beyond help at this point...)

[reawl]

If you're looking for a tasteful way to spruce up your uniform, you can grab a Post Sport stretch jacket and matching knickers from The Fencing Post and ask them for "piping". They have to send it back to the manufacturer so it takes alittle longer, but basically you get these 3" wides bands of colored fabric sewn right into your knickers and one year later the color hasn't faded. There may be a small charge (about $20) and you can't return 'em if they're the wrong size. But it is tasteful and they can do most any color combination you want. I went with blue on the left and black on the right.

[Event Horizon]

Originally posted by lochinvar
So, are you seriously suggesting that it's not all subjective now? One person's definition of "attack into preparation" is another person's definition of "counterattack without parry"...

If we were to follow your reasoning vigorously, then we would never change anything. I don't know about you, but I would find that irksome and tedious and--eventually--quite boring.

I submit that a few "fripperies" won't hurt the sport or the tradition, and might even make it a teensy-weensy bit more fun. (It might even lighten Inquartata up a few notches, although I fear he's probably beyond help at this point...)

Well, an "attack into preparation" should be an "attack into preparation." Bad interpretation is just bad judging right? I don't think you can have leeway on this. I don't know the rules by heart so I could be wrong.

I never said "never change anything" but change shouldn't be done on a whim. Change should be benificial for everyone (or majority) and not just a few.

A few "fripperies" is how it always start. I guess I'm more of a traditionalist. It'll probably happen, unfortunately, sometime in the future. As long as I don't have to wear that stupid visor mask.

[I_luv_saber]

Originally posted by Event Horizon
True sports evolve and that's not a bad thing. It's necessary at times. Too much change too often isn't good. With the major sports organizations how often do you see them change? Not very often.

You obviously don't follow football, hockey, basketball, etc. They change constantly.

[lochinvar]

Originally posted by Event Horizon
As long as I don't have to wear that stupid visor mask.

Amen, brother! Amen!

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by RogueNine
If for no other reason, color would help identify people.

"oh, there's the guy with the tiger mask, i remember him", etc

Sounds good in theory, but it doesn't work out in practice. ( I also fence in the SCA where, believe me, color and variety and goofily painted masks are the rule. What you'll get are twenty guys in various stabs at "tiger masks". And with all the riotous color you STILL can't tell people apart with their masks on. )

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by Army Fencer
Who choses the warm-ups for teams? Are any of them offensive or go far beyond what people accept as appropriate? I think there are ways to make it work without making fencing "flippant." Make the club coach responsible for what their fencers wear!

What people are agitating for is not team colors, it's "personal freedom", "individual expression", "nonconformity", etc.

And---what about the many fencers without coaches? Or without coaches whom they let control their every decision? Which is just about everyone over 21, I suspect....

Sadly, self-policing doesn't work in very many areas of modern life. Too many people competing to see how low they can set the bar...

Inq, you seem to be resisting change solely because you want to resist change.

Nah. Partly it's just for the sake of argument, too.

But seriously, no, nothing so reductionistic. I have several reasons for my position. True, one is that I am not one to insist on fixing things that aren't broken. But there is also a simple personal preference for the comfort of uniformity ( that's why they're called fencing UNIFORMS, after all ). The fact that looking the same imparts a group solidarity and keeps us all grounded in our essential common denominator---from Olympic champions to the rawest novice, we all are alike in at least that one way
( though alas not so much any more ). There is tradition, too, yes, but one might turn things about and say that the color-seekers, and the mask-painters, are being rabidly ANTI-tradition, seeking to overthrow long practice simply out of selfish dissatisfaction with anything that IS in favor of what they think SHOULD be---is that any more acceptable as a position?

Traditions are important, but when they extend past their utility, they are meaningless.

But then, who is to decree when they are "meaningless"? And moreover, even if they are "meaningless" but are also harmless, why throw them over for no better reason than the worship of the modern graven idol, Change? Especially when the change offers no desiderata more valuable than those it displaces?

And if there is an opportunity to draw more athletes to the sport, you ARE enhancing it.

The crux of that statement lies in the word "if".

It has not been demonstrated that the degree of color currently permitted has "drawn anyone in" to fencing. Why then buy a pig-in-a-poke, and go still further just on the off chance that more of a ( IMO ) bad thing will suddenly reveal itself to be the Key to Fencing Popularity? ( And really, do you seriously believe that anyone ever has or will take up fencing just for the chance to wear a really cool colored outfit? Or that anyone who is truly drawn to fencing would be deterred by having to wear white? )

Ultimately I have to disagree that opportunity is the same as realization.

I don't want spiderman costumes any more than the next serious, competitive fencer.

I know you don't . But whether now or later, someone will. Because when color becomes ubiquitous, what will satisfy those who still want to be "different", to "stand out from the herd", those who now find monocolor outfits as "boring" as they once found whites? Do you really think they will all say "Thus far, and no farther---I am content"?

[40Saberthieves]

Inq- How many soccer teams do you see wearing spiderman costumes?