How serious is the FIE?

[The0ne]

Hey all,
WIth all the new rule changes the FIE has suggested, which suggested rules do you think WILL become real rules after the 2004-2005 season? Not which ones you like or don't like, but what ones you think will be adopted.

-The0ne

[labouche]

The only one I would say is a possibility would be the taking out of fleching in foil. The other two are absolutely absurd!!! If they decided to put a lame on the arm I'll start fencing epee!!

[Aeric]

The only one that I would really like to see happen is the removal of flicks.

The off-target, extended lame, and flesche thing are not too appealing to me. Fortunately, most of the committee are still unsure about most of these (except the flicks, woohoo!)

[whtouche]

I don't see why people oppose the lame`ification of part of the arm in foil for.

It's not as if the arm is outright going to be target and subject to stop his. The lame` materiel will go from elbow, DOWN to the wrist. The only way it could become target would be if it is touching your main target(torso), which would be covering target anyways.

Why is this a bad thing, making people unable, or making it harder to, cover target.

[swordsen]

Prehaps because we view it as a pointless and unneeded complication of the game.

[rukovsoft]

why changing it....???

don t you like fencing that way?

On other fencing forum, those proposals unleash questions...

why making those proposals...to make fencing more "spectacular" thus more "tv acceptable'....

do you really feel that supressing the fleche will do so....

imagine the fie votes a couple of the proposals, can a federation refuse to implement them? i think that s what should be done in such a case...

after those decisions, foil will look EVEN more like sabre (reference to the way foil is oftern directed like sabre), sabre will..i don t know sabre...the epee in the long term will be the only one weapon that will sustain?

what do u guys think?

[downunder]

i don't think it would be in the best interests for a federation to not implement any changes, cos any world cups would be under the FIE rules, and it would put their fencers at a clear disadvantage.

kinda like the 10 month or so delay it took the USFA to change the lights around, i can imagine some US fencers were a bit confused fencing overseas....

[Trog]

Which ones I think will get through, rather than which ones I like, eh?

I'd say all the timing/blocking changes will go through; The FIE has never been shy to change the specs on electronic eq, and they seem quite determined to minimise the use of flicks in competition.

Foil Bend Regulation: Probably the easiest to impliment; almost definitely go through (but I don't think it's going to change anything..)

Foil Bib on target is probably the most likely to go through, given that it's a return to older target areas. May be opposed by people wanting to keep fencing cheaper for the individual fencer, though (I, for one, wouldn't trust my saber mask not to give away head shots..)

I'd say the fleche rule change will meet *significant* objection. But maybe I'm wrong.

En Garde Changes make very little difference to anyone, and will probably pass with little or no problem.

On-Again Off-Again forearm target area - I really can't see this one passing. It's just too silly, adds eq for absolutely no reason, and will make testing on the piste ahead of time a pain.

Just one man's 2c.

Tony

[sabreur]

Originally posted by Trog

En Garde Changes make very little difference to anyone, and will probably pass with little or no problem.

Changing the en garde lines would make an enormous amount of difference. Take two reasonably accomplished fencers, place them en garde with their rear feet on the start line and have them lunge.

They'll be bell to bell immediately (we tried this at training on Tuesday). Just figure the distances--it is only two meters from the start lines to the center line. You don't have to be Michael Marx to lunge and have your bell end up two meters from where your back foot started.

MR

[CarlKnoch]

Originally posted by sabreur
Changing the en garde lines would make an enormous amount of difference. Take two reasonably accomplished fencers, place them en garde with their rear feet on the start line and have them lunge.

They'll be bell to bell immediately (we tried this at training on Tuesday). Just figure the distances--it is only two meters from the start lines to the center line. You don't have to be Michael Marx to lunge and have your bell end up two meters from where your back foot started.

MR

I think that after an off target halt, fencers are already lining up much closer than the en guard lines. I'm not seeing bell to bell much from that position as most are smarter fencers than that.

I would agree with Trog on this one, as I don't think that the en guard line change would make a significant difference in fencing.

[oiuyt]

Originally posted by Trog
Foil Bib on target is probably the most likely to go through, given that it's a return to older target areas. May be opposed by people wanting to keep fencing cheaper for the individual fencer, though (I, for one, wouldn't trust my saber mask not to give away head shots..)

Bib target is the least likely to go through. This one was shot down by the medical commission when it was raised several years ago. Can't imagine much has changed since then that would change their opinion. Medical commission makes this one a non-starter.

-B :)

[DanInMI]

I think that the requirement that the tip be depressed an extended time in foil seems highly likely. Eventually the flick is going to be eliminated.

I don't say that because it is a wish of mine (in fact, I am afraid that if they are not careful in the way that they dtermine what the timing should be the effect would be disasterous)

There seems to be some very influential support for this idea.
Also, the manufacturers of scoring boxes seem to have forseen this eventuality by designing thier boxes to be reprogrammed when the time comes.

I don't think it is nescessary to make the bib target or the upper arm target. I don't think it will happen. I think that has been brought on by europeans that are frustrated with fencing these skinny american chicks that can turn their head sidways and cover thier whole shoulder with a bib and hide behind the weapon arm with just a sliver of target showing on either side. (i have to admit in mixed foil that has frustrated me more than a few times, but it's my own fault that I have a belly they can take pokes at.)

I don't understand why they might WANT to eliminate the fleche from foil. When it is well executed it is surely a spectator pleaser. I think it is the "slam dunk" of fencing. But it is not overused. It is not undefensible.

[R. Exnicios]

I think all these rule changes are a plot to increase the number of epee fencers!



We need to stop the FIE changing rules every year!

[The0ne]

If the blocking times are changed in the machines, would that require a technitician to change them or is it something that one can do yourself? I imagine that if every club has to have their machines worked on that could amount to a large amount of money. Most of the techinical rules the FIE has mandated, such as the changes having to be made to the tip will discourage more fencers. . . I personally (if the rules go through) would have to buy alot of new equipment. . . My savings account doesn't like the sounds of that. . . =(

Foil is fine don't change the freaking rules

[OCTAVIA]

I agree also re: the lame on the arm, it's so funny, it's like 1/2 epee 1/2 saber?

On the other hand, the fleche adds to the momentum of the game thus making it more visually appeling for television, even though we're not media hounds the sport could use a shot in the arm during the olympics. The fleche attack is good, I wish they'd reconsider, especially since it's still used in epee. Do you all think we're moving toward a one weapon sport?

Will foil go the way of the fleche which is weak?

Epee is so versitile and flexible, we have crossovers, fleche, the whole entire body as a target, it's great. But the under the surface, unspoken gentleman's agreement has been never to spear the throat and there are other issues as well.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by oiuyt
Bib target is the least likely to go through. This one was shot down by the medical commission when it was raised several years ago. Can't imagine much has changed since then that would change their opinion. Medical commission makes this one a non-starter.

-B

On what grounds do they object? I can't imagine it's a safety issue inasmuch as it works without a trace of difficulty in sabre...

[DHCJr]

First to Inquarta: How often do they use a thrust in Sabre. What the Medical Commission and the SEMI Commission are worried about is the thrust. Foil was why they mandated the bib in the first place. Epee trys for the hand and arm, Sabre uses a cut.

Originally posted by The0ne
If the blocking times are changed in the machines, would that require a technitician to change them or is it something that one can do yourself? I imagine that if every club has to have their machines worked on that could amount to a large amount of money. Most of the techinical rules the FIE has mandated, such as the changes having to be made to the tip will discourage more fencers. . . I personally (if the rules go through) would have to buy alot of new equipment. . . My savings account doesn't like the sounds of that. . . =(

Foil is fine don't change the freaking rules

It depends on the age of the machine. Most modern machines are programmed. It depends on what type, what it will cost. It can be free (Eigerteck and Blue Sky) to around $50 plus shipping.

[The0ne]

Thanks, Forunately the club I go to has invested in mainly Eigertech machines, so the cost will be minimized if that situation occurs

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by DHCJr
First to Inquarta: How often do they use a thrust in Sabre. What the Medical Commission and the SEMI Commission are worried about is the thrust.

I guess it depends on who your opponent is. I once lost a DE badly to an A foilist who had never done sabre before. He did nothing BUT thrusts and PIL. I have a clubmate who uses point very effectively. And one of the most amusing sabre bouts I've ever seen was between two left-handed epeeists. This sort of bout is not as rare as one might think, especially at lower skill/experience levels, where one would expect any risk to be the greatest.

Seems to me that either a practice is safe or it isn't, and to say "Well, it's safe if only you don't do it very often" is not a defensible medical position. It only takes one instance gone awry, after all.

Of course, maybe it's just the realization that foilists are more delicate creatures than sabre-fencers, and must be protected more...

[Rolls]

Also, I don't think it's that rare to get hit in the bib now with it off target, but no one says that foil is unsafe now. So, how could it be more dangerous? Plus, as many have pointed out, the bib could be made larger if it were target area. Thus, it would be safer not less.

I really can't see the argument that it's unsafe effecting a decision on the bib being target area.

Rolls.