Foil/Saber Rule Changes Committee Report

[kro]

Here is the link to the FIE site that has the report. It is interesting reading....

kro


http://www.fie.ch/download/letters/2...0HOC%20ANG.pdf

[sabreur]

So, in sabre, your riposte has to land within .12 seconds of any remise to have priority.... Given that human reaction times generally are in the range of .1 seconds, this seems to me to greatly increase the likelihood of a remise that is currently considered out of time getting priority. With beginning fencers, the problem will be exacerbated. On the other hand, my nifty little attacks to the other guy's forearm as he's coming forward will have a better chance of scoring unambiguously.

I also hate the idea of starting with my back foot on the en garde line. I think it will just lead to a lot more simultaneous attacks.

I'm looking forward to foil fencers wearing masks with metallic bibs and a lame half-sleeve on their weapon arm. It will certainly do wonders for the equipment suppliers.



MR

[40Saberthieves]

Its interesting that they want to remove flecheing from foil

[qatet]

Sucks to be on the Junior World Cup circuit next year - working between two different sets of rules.

I had no idea they were working on getting rid of the fleche in foil as well. I used to lose sabre bouts to myself for crossing. Bah.

The introduction of intermittant target area on the arm doesn't really seem like a way to make the fencing more spectator friendly. Can you imagine trying to explain it to somebody who doesn't fence?

[40Saberthieves]

As I read it, the foilists have a lame on their weapon arm from the shoulder to elbow on the outside of the arm.

[qatet]

Originally posted by RogueNine
As I read it, the foilists have a lame on their weapon arm from the shoulder to elbow on the outside of the arm.

"M. Baiocco managed to produce just such a conductive sleeve, designed not to be in direct contact with the conductive jacket and providing no coverage of the inside part of the arm, all the way down to the grip;
o Under the conditions outlined above, the sleeve becomes valid target only if the forearm comes into contact with the chest, in an attempt to cover valid target area."

I think that that means that it would only work if put into contact with the body's lame. Wierd.

[sabreman]

I am in favor of the 120 ms blocking for sabre. Currently refs are giving favor to long attack (not true attack IMHO but its the Russian way LOL!) when counter attack is in time.

[canthidefromme]

It'd be kinda tough to determine if someone's arm is actually touching the lame or just really close to it. Plus, is it really that big of a problem people using their sword arm to cover target? (while in contact with the lame, not to 'parry' with their arm)

[veeco]

Lots of women foilists do this. And it looks really bad.

[prototoast]

Originally posted by canthidefromme
It'd be kinda tough to determine if someone's arm is actually touching the lame or just really close to it. Plus, is it really that big of a problem people using their sword arm to cover target? (while in contact with the lame, not to 'parry' with their arm)

It sounds like it would be something like an overglove that would slide up on your arm, but would not connect at the shoulder, as such, it would not register as valid target unless it was brought into contact with other valid target, much in the same way as I'm sure we've all accidentally had our sabre blades become valid target at one point or another.

[canthidefromme]

Originally posted by prototoast
It sounds like it would be something like an overglove that would slide up on your arm, but would not connect at the shoulder, as such, it would not register as valid target unless it was brought into contact with other valid target, much in the same way as I'm sure we've all accidentally had our sabre blades become valid target at one point or another.

Oops, I should've been more clear. What I meant was it would be difficult for the other fencer to tell if the arm was in contact with lame, not the director.

[Philistine]

Originally posted by qatet
{snip}
The introduction of intermittant target area on the arm doesn't really seem like a way to make the fencing more spectator friendly. Can you imagine trying to explain it to somebody who doesn't fence?

Or even explaining it to someone who does fence....



Testing at the beginning of the bout should be interesting for foil, as well--test lames, test bib, put arm against body and test arm....

On a more serious note--what is the actual status of these proposals--are they all likely to pass, some, or will they languish in bureacratic never-never land for a few years?

--Philistine

[veeco]

Originally posted by Philistine
On a more serious note--what is the actual status of these proposals--are they all likely to pass, some, or will they languish in bureacratic never-never land for a few years?

--Philistine

Some will pass, some won't. The powers will vote on those at the Leipzig conference, which will happen on the 22nd and 23rd of November.

[kro]

I am OK with everything but the arm lame, losing the flesch/crossover and non-valid hits being taken out. I am not crazy about the bib target but things could be worse.

I read some articles from people on the board and the congress that have seen the video tape tests and they are not all that impressed with the proposed changes. As far as what the committee was assigned to do, test the proposed changes and make recommendations, they did. On that last page...I could see #1,2,4 and possibly 5 (bib only) passing.

Now it's just wait and see.

kro

[Wizardly]

Re: saber masks in foil

The vendors must loooove this one. No longer one mask for foil and epee and one mask for saber. Now it's one mask for each weapon. Saber masks wont work for foil because
a) the mesh is conductive! the report is FOS: I've sweat enough to have the parts of my mask where the insulation has worn off register as valid target.
b) the cheek is valid target in saber masks and is covered by cloth, not rough mesh

What I wan to know is: how are they goint to allow for the attachment of the bib to the lame (just the bib, not the face)?

Anyway, what a windfall for the vendors.

Major point not mentioned in the report: you can't bring fencing to the masses if you make it more expensive to participate.

Oversleeve: worst idea on the list (assuming they aren't considering off-target removal, in which would otherwise be the worst idea on the list).
Crossover removal: a very close second.

The rest I'll wait and see.

[mrvegas]

I don't have any problem with the change in blocking times or impact time -- although the whole bent arm/flick issue could be dealt with if the FIE could enforce some discipline on its directors. An advance is not an attack -- I think it is obvious that there has been a radical re-interpretation of ROW in the last twenty years.

That never-ending controversy aside, the rest of it seems like a radical change in the whole game. The sleeve thing sounds really ridiculous. I have a hard time picturing this in practice. Eliminating the crossover is also stupid. Fleching doesn't have nearly the impact in foil that it did in sabre.

The off-target elimination would really change the weapon. If they're going to do this, they'd be better off just making the top half of each arm valid target to eliminate or at least reduce covering problems.

I think they've gone overboard.

[neevel]

Page 10 is the "Executive Summary" which lists the items commission is actually proposing to have implemented next season. The "go" items are:

-Reduced double-touch blocking time.
-Increased tip debounce time.
-750 g spring weight for foil
-1 cm maximum blade curvature for foil
- drop reversing shoulders as an offense in foil (with the admonition that referees be strict about calling covering target).

What exactly they mean regarding foil masks is a bit unclear to me-- while they say almost all on the commission favored making the bib target, they still appear to be reserving judgement on that (i.e., they don't explicitly say "Make the bib target").

All the other items they either reserved judgement on (banning the fleche, removing the off-target) or don't even mention at all (making the weapon arm target if it comes into contact with the body).

If anything happens w.r.t. making only the mask bib target, Leon Paul will probably make a killing with their X-change mask patent, as you'll be able to buy one mask, and then get a conductive bib for foil and a non-conductive one for epee.

-Dave

[edew]

It's not in the past 20 years. If anything, the interpretations have moved back towards tightening up what is considered right of way (for foil).

I can remember 15 years ago when as long as the person who is moving forward can set off the light, it didn't matter when the stop-hit/counter-attack/attack-in-preparation occurred. The call will be for the forward moving person. Now, stop-hits will count. Attacks into preparation will count. Counter-attacks still don't count, which is good. And right.

I still don't see the problem with foil. It really is a case of "ain't broken, don't fix it." There's a bunch of off-target in women's foil, I think, even at the upper echelon. But really, aside from the possible tedium that so many off-targets generates, there's nothing wrong with using off-target to shield attacks to on-target areas, provided that there's no illegal actions.

[Rolls]

I'm in agreeance. I don't want to see any changes because I like foil the way it is. Or if they do make changes, I would rather them spend a LOT more time thinking about them and trying them out. I keep getting the feeling that everytime there is a proposed change whoever is in charge of making them at the FIE gets real excited and tries to rush them through. What's the rush? The sport is operating just fine. So, there is no reason they can't take a couple more years to think about some of these serious changes. What happens if they aren't for the better. What happens if these changes dramatically effect the participation in foil. I'm think about competing more in epee just from hearing about all the proposed new rules. At least in epee, I have good idea what the rules are. I could be wrong but don't most sports pretty much have a static set of rules.

Rolls.

[mfp]

Originally posted by neevel
If anything happens w.r.t. making only the mask bib target, Leon Paul will probably make a killing with their X-change mask patent, as you'll be able to buy one mask, and then get a conductive bib for foil and a non-conductive one for epee.

What would be the connection between the conductive bib and the foil lame or body cord? Would foilists get an extra clip and look as dorky as sabre fencers? :-)

The biggest advantage to making the foil bib a (conductive) target is that bibs for both foil and epee could be made larger, something epee fencers would especially appreciate. Right now since suppliers typically make 2 weapon foil/epee masks, epee fencers are stuck with a smaller than desired bib for the sake of not covering target in a weapon they don't care about.