Foil/Saber Rule Changes Committee Report

[mrvegas]

Edew --

On the ROW issue, I have to admit you're right. Based on the WC tapes I've seen, they're permitting a few more attacks into preparation at the highest levels than 3-4 years ago. In particular, I remember during the 2002 Wessels\Vanni bout actually being surprised at some of the attacks into preparation that Wessels was given (he got killed anyway). I thought they were good calls, but Vanni obviously didn't.

This trend doesn't quite seem to have filtered down to the NAC level yet here in the US. Adjusting to directors is always part of the game, but we seem to be a little bit behind the Europeans (just like we were when they started calling feet).

I flick myself, and I think the parry\flick riposte teaches an important lesson to many tall beginners who try to duck, suck in their (tiny) guts, and hide behind an extended arm. Still, I have some philosophical sympathy with those that oppose it.

[Inquartata]

I'm willing to wait and see.

Back when they banned the crossover in sabre, I was one of many moaning that it was an unneccessary change, it was going to alter the nature of the sport to its detriment, etc. Instead it actually improved things. Such is the way of change.

[whtouche]

Im tentatively in favor of the decreased blocking time in sabre and foil. Attacks in preparation will be alot less ambiguous for sure, but what I fear most is a quick remise taking priority over a properly-executed riposte. I fenced on a box once on which there were several different settings for timing(confusing machine, no labels so we just fumbled thru it),and one of them - it was set for sabre but the lockout time was almost like epee, if not the exact same thing. I just hope it doesnt end up like that, with simultaneous actions necessitating a decision one way or the other.

[The0ne]

Wow, goodbye exciting fun to watch foil bouts!
But seriously I think foil will become SOOOO defensively oriented that the bouts will get more boring to watch. . . Most of the long attacks seen at high levels today use either a flick attack or multiple feints, including feinting to the back. . . Now I think we will see fencing with close to no preperation, and lots of defense, and turning shoulders. . . That is the stupidest rule for them to change, because no-one is going to call the covering. . . Cutting the fleche, dumb. There aren't an abundance of simultanious fleching actions like there were in Sabre when they made the change, I don't see the logic.

My over-all verdict of the changes: Lame.

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by The0ne
Wow, goodbye exciting fun to watch foil bouts!

Dude, that ship has sailed.

And foundered.

And sunk.

And a reef has formed over it.

It's foil.

[Almightynoitall]

8.6.3
Am I the only one whom agrees that the bib should wualify as valid target in foil? apparently not! I like it!


9.2
I do not believe that the sword arm should count as 'covering target... remember, foil attacks the vitals... the sword arm should be considered just an extension of the sword itself.

[The0ne]

Inquartata,
It may have sunk but I have fun with it even underwater!!!

[downunder]

*sigh*

they're destroying foil

[Artisan]

heh...
take away the fleche, and usfa will have to change its logo.

And to muckrake a bit...How come no proposed changes for epee? Have epee's rules fully evolved, such that the game is now "perfect" ?

[Rolls]

Well, honestly I don't mind the bib being target for foil. But I do mind the extra cost of buying a new mask... I just got a new mask : (

Anyway, as for the fleche. I don't fleche at all in foil (or very rarely) so it would probably advantageous to me for them to take it away, but I still think it is a bad decision. Of course, that's one of the main things that I don't like about sabre is that there is no fleche... And I don't fleche.

Rolls.

[qatet]

Originally posted by Artisan
heh...
take away the fleche, and usfa will have to change its logo.

They already had to do that! It used to be a beautiful sabre fleche.

[darius]

Anyway, as for the fleche. I don't fleche at all in foil (or very rarely) so it would probably advantageous to me for them to take it away, but I still think it is a bad decision.

The fleche is such a beautiful action when executed properly. I understand taking it out in sabre, because it was the entire game.

However, running attacks and fleches are just a small part of foil tactics -- you see them on all levels of fencing here in the US. Done correctly and in time, they score points, and done incorrectly, they are defeated.

I don't understand why some people in the FIE is so insistent on removing them from foil -- they're not game-breaking actions, and they're not hard to call.

Of all of these proposals, the one that I like the most is removing the penalty for reversal of shoulders. That's a good way of combatting the flick that doesn't require insane purchases of equipment, or "breaking" the rules.

Currently, people do reverse their shoulders to stop a flick; they step in with a counterattack and turn, causing the flick to land flat. The turning is considered to be after the halt (which comes with the hit), so that's fine. If they miss the counterattack and then turn their shoulders, it's a yellow card.

If I can make a false-counterattack to draw the flick to the shoulder, cause the attack to fall short by reversing shoulders, then make an in-time riposte, you're going to think twice about finishing with that flick, non?

A decreased blocking time won't necessarily be bad, but they'd better be sure that it doesn't reward incorrect actions over correct ones. Otherwise, you can bet I'll be working on my attack, remise with some epeeist friends.

As for 750g, 1cm bend, funky masks, closer en-garde....what is broken that needs fixing here? Referees just need to be educated as to exactly when a preparation becomes and attack, and foil will be just peachy.

darius

[R. Exnicios]

We need to stop changing the rules every year. It makes the sport look like we don't have our act together.

Falling is a penaly, no its not.
stepping off the strip with one foot . . . .

The rules should stay as uniform as possible. Fleche alowed in all 3 Ws. turning the shoulder not a card unless you cover or hit with brutality. (the same in all 3 Ws)

the 8 touch break in DEs in all 3 Ws etc.

The target area for the three weapons and the rules of ROW are fine it keeps the 3Ws distinct.

The off target light in foiul is neccesary to keep it as foil. if we enforce the rules we have (blade bend, rigality etc.) the "flick problem" will end.

We need to stop the FIE, FOC, BOD etc, from changing the rules every year.

I don't know what we can do but we need to stop the rule changes!

Cheers

[Rolls]

Referees just need to be educated...

Something I would like to see in the US is referee clinics not just for the referees but also for the fencers. The refs aren't the only ones who need to be educated on the rules, the fencers do too.

It would be nice for the USFA to hold a giant ref clinic at summer nationals where anyone in the events could participate. Then, when fencers have to self ref local tournament pools, it will run more smoothly. But it will also help because I lot of people break the rules out of ignorance.

The more ref clinics, the more educated refs, the better quality tournaments, the better quality fencing. Also, the more educated refs the more local ref clinics, the more local educated refs, the more higher quality local tournaments, etc.

I think this should be a real initiative on the part of the national body.

Now for my Disclaimer, I'm aware that there are ref clinics. However, they don't happen within a days drive of me that I am aware of. Also, I am aware of some trying to get one going in my area. If that happens, you can bet that I will attend.

Rolls.

[mtarascio]

Referee Seminars are held at the Summer Nationals.

Divisions and/or clubs can make arrangements to have a referee seminar in their area.

It is unfortunate that the FIE is going to make some of these changes. These changes will not make foil better.

[edew]

Originally posted by darius
The fleche is such a beautiful action when executed properly. I understand taking it out in sabre, because it was the entire game.

However, running attacks and fleches are just a small part of foil tactics -- you see them on all levels of fencing here in the US. Done correctly and in time, they score points, and done incorrectly, they are defeated.

I don't understand why some people in the FIE is so insistent on removing them from foil -- they're not game-breaking actions, and they're not hard to call.

Of all of these proposals, the one that I like the most is removing the penalty for reversal of shoulders. That's a good way of combatting the flick that doesn't require insane purchases of equipment, or "breaking" the rules.

Currently, people do reverse their shoulders to stop a flick; they step in with a counterattack and turn, causing the flick to land flat. The turning is considered to be after the halt (which comes with the hit), so that's fine. If they miss the counterattack and then turn their shoulders, it's a yellow card.

If I can make a false-counterattack to draw the flick to the shoulder, cause the attack to fall short by reversing shoulders, then make an in-time riposte, you're going to think twice about finishing with that flick, non?

A decreased blocking time won't necessarily be bad, but they'd better be sure that it doesn't reward incorrect actions over correct ones. Otherwise, you can bet I'll be working on my attack, remise with some epeeist friends.

As for 750g, 1cm bend, funky masks, closer en-garde....what is broken that needs fixing here? Referees just need to be educated as to exactly when a preparation becomes and attack, and foil will be just peachy.

darius

The reversal of shoulders rule for foil is a good rule. Without that, it would revert back to the old days of "propellor back-arm" used as a defense. And then the referee had to watch that as well. Now, it's an easy call to make, so it's implementable by the referees.

Basically, if you reverse shoulders in foil, you're doing it to cover target or entangle the opponent's blade in an illegal manner. So might as well give the yellow card for getting just to that stage when you're going to do the illegal thing anyway.

[Ramrod]

Artisan,

Yes, Epee is perfect. Thank you.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by darius
The fleche is such a beautiful action when executed properly. I understand taking it out in sabre, because it was the entire game.

However, running attacks and fleches are just a small part of foil tactics -- you see them on all levels of fencing here in the US. Done correctly and in time, they score points, and done incorrectly, they are defeated.

I don't understand why some people in the FIE is so insistent on removing them from foil -- they're not game-breaking actions, and they're not hard to call.

I agree....i don't see any point in eliminating the fleche. It is not like it is an undefensible attack.

[Craig]

Originally posted by edew
The reversal of shoulders rule for foil is a good rule. Without that, it would revert back to the old days of "propellor back-arm" used as a defense. And then the referee had to watch that as well. Now, it's an easy call to make, so it's implementable by the referees.

Maybe this was a bone thrown to the Germans to get them to go along with the "anti flick" rules and blocking...Seems like it was a few German fencers who were really good at the turn the shoulder remise that got the rule added in the first place.

(Relying totally on hearsay from when I started fencing in the 80s)

Craig

[Aeric]

It's going to be funny watch some world-class foilists get murdered because they rely on flicks.

I was told this would never happen.

Well, it did.

Now I can hopefully get back to fencing.