tournament pictures

[arcon]

Ok, all you shutter bugs. Ive been elected to take some pictures for some
individuals while at a tournament. What do you suggest? Im well aware of the"No flash rule" but there has to be a way to get some quality shots. A fast color film.....what do you suggest? Id like to get the real thing(competitive shots) not anything set up.
help!

[DangerMouse]

I generally shoot 800 speed color film with a 50/1.8 lens manual focus. If you aren't great with manual focus, focus on a point where most of the action will be. I find auto focus tends to focus on the crowd behind the fencers. Also, take lots of film and shoot it. Don't expect more than a couple good prints from each roll.

[swordsen]

I have had some excellent results with a GOOD digital camera. It helps that you can examine results, adjust and modify, on the fly so to speak.

[pkt]

1. First off, let's dispel the 'no flash' rule. There is no such rule. If you asked the fencers who are going to be in the fotos first, before the bout starts, most of them will say "Yes, sure." esp. if you promise to send them copies. [Yes, we all want to have fotos of us fencing in a competition...] The flash will not blind the fencers, contrary to common belief. OTOH, it'll make the rest of the gym look like it's unlit.
2. The Fast films will def. help. If you can get 1,600 then do it. If not, then 800 will do. If you want to you may be able to get 1,600 film in b&w only. It may give you a more 'artistic' result. Besides. b&w is all you need for fencing.
3. What you do depends very much on the camera you'll be using and the result you want. The fast speed will freeze the action, so unless you shoot lots of rolls and are lucky, you'll not see many shots like you see in the 2002 Lisboa WC site. they're using 600mm lenses and the place was lit like a studio. [except of course the last half of the final MS bout.] So unless you're shooting over the shoulder, immediately to either side of him or you can shoot right beside the piste you won't get the same kind of result.
Remember, fencing is very difficult to shoot simply because by the time you see the action starting, you press the button, the action is over. In most likelihood you'll get the end bit of the action. The only to remedy this is to shoot many rolls, or make as many shots as you can. Or you can shoot as soon as a fencer starts coming forward and hope that he is going to attack or do something.

From the little bit of experience I have with digi-cams - assuming that's what you're using, then you're in trouble unless you have one of the faster didi-cam: the write-speed is not that fast on most under-$1,000 digicams so your chance of shooting a series of exposures trying to catch one that's good is seriously reduced.
Then there's the number of exposures you can make on your card...in spite of the fact that you can erase the duds. But when the bout is on-going, you have no time to do that. At this point in time your priority is to shoot, edit later.

Do NOT use autofocus.

Since you'll be panning with the action, panning confuses AT. Just pick the centre of the piste, know your 'field of depth' adjust the focus only when they're at the end of the piste. It's easier for you to move to get a good foto.

But hey, just use the fastest film you can get, set the camera to the biggest aperture [smallest aperture number], pick your spot of focus on the piste and "Fire" away.

Good luck, do let us know when you've posted the fotos.

PK

[sabreur]

If you use flash, you'll get better results. The bigger the flash (higher guide number), the better. If you shoot flash, try to shoot from a position at right angles to the strip, rather than from one end of the strip--that way, you are not shooting into one fencer's eyes, which will blind him, and win you quick requests to stop. Also, the power of the flash diminishes with the square of distance, so if one fencer is twice as far away from you, they will only receive one quarter of the light that the nearer fencer does (inverse square law). Shooting at right angles will give you more even lighting.

Flash will also produce some bizarre effects--you'll be amazed by the shapes of the blades. You can also get some nifty effects by combining flash with a slow shutter speed. To do this consistently, you need to know how to balance the light, but if you just fool around with it, you'll get some good results. If you have rear curtain synch on your camera, that also helps.

Having said that, I prefer no flash, high speed film (I find ASA 800 does fine in most locales), a wide aperture, a wide angle (I have a 24mm lens that I'm very fond of), and a shooting position right next to the strip. You need a shutter speed of 1/60 (some blurring of moving limbs) to 1/250 (stops pretty much all the action in my experience, except for blades). Again, if you fool around with different shutter speeds, you'll get some good results.

Fencing venues can be pretty tricky in terms of exposure--I hate auto exposure anyway, so I generally meter off the palm of my hand, then add half a stop--that gives me as close to a grey card as I need, especially if I'm shooting print or B&W film, both of which are pretty forgiving.

Finally, burn film. If I'm shooting an event with a view toward producing a couple of shots for publication, I'll easily go through 4-5 rolls in an afternoon. Film is cheap, and the more you shoot, the more likely you are to get that one good photo.

Regards, MR

[arcon]

I apreciate all the good advice here, thanks alot.

So far at all the tournaments ive attended the officials wont allow a flash
during competitive bouts. I didnt mean to imply or say there
was an actual written "No flash rule". It just seems to be rule
of thumb among most directors.

[U.M.Amherst.Sabre95]

First off, let's dispel the 'no flash' rule. There is no such rule. If you asked the fencers who are going to be in the fotos first, before the bout starts, most of them will say "Yes, sure." esp. if you promise to send them copies. [Yes, we all want to have fotos of us fencing in a competition...] The flash will not blind the fencers, contrary to common belief. OTOH, it'll make the rest of the gym look like it's unlit.

This may be true - it isn't a rule per-say, but if you use a flash it's a sure fire way to get on the bad side of the bout director, other tournament officials, coaches, and the competitors. Also, while it may not be blinding it can certianly be a distraction.

You can certainly ask the fencers beforehand if it's o.k. to photograph them, but IMHO this also serves as a distraction. The fencer should be concentrating on the upcoming bout, not on accomodating the requests of the photographer.

When I go about shooting a competition my role is not only to get the best possible photos, but to be anonymous as part of that process:

* I don't use flash out of respect for the fencers, the tournament officials, and others.

* I get as close to the action as I can, but no so close as to serve as a distraction to the fencers or director.

* If I notice a fencer paying un-due attention to me either during the bout or just prior to it I'll re-position myself as to not be in their direct line of sight. Their focus should be on the competing, not on me.

* If an individual approaches me with some concern I listen, then try to find an alternative that suits both their needs and mine - there's always room for compromise.

Be gracious in sharing in your efforts. From time to time I've had parents ask if I could collect a few shots of their child, sometimes selling them (at a cut-rate price), while in other circumstances I'll simply donate the images. Let's face it, a lot of people can't make the competitions where their children are competing, and it's nice to get some sense (through the photos) of what their experiences are like.

All that being said...

The shots from the 2002 World Championships in Lisbon are amongst if not the best fencing photographs I've ever seen, a culmination of an excellent photographer with good equipment, an excellent venue condusive to strong images, and what appears to be enough understanding of the sport to know how to anticipate action, what form looks strong, etc.

I wish I were that good.

If you want good, action images regardless of the venue you need.

* Fast lens: f/2.8 or lower. If you're using existing light you need a wide aperture to collect as much as possible. I usually bring two to any competition: a Nikkor 80-200 AF at f/2.8, and a fixed telephoto or wide-angle with a lower aperture, perhaps f/1.8. The 80-200 works well in that I can follow the action, with enough flexibility to get close, tight shots, or to zoom out. I almost never shoot action using autofocus.

* Fast shutter speed: I've gotten away with shooting at 1/125 sec. before, but to really "stop action" you need something approx. 1/500 of a sec. or faster.

* Film: If you're not shooting digital, using film with an ISO rating of 800 works best, at least IMHO. I use Fuji Press 800, a photojournalist film that's a bit more contrasty, but still quite sharp with a fairly low-grain. You can push this to 1600 (or buy ISO 1600 film) to give you faster shutter speed, but you're also going to get more grain in the process.

If you're trying to get good action shots with a little point and shoot, even a good quality digital camera it's going to be somewhat tough. There are just so many variables to consider that may not be allowed for in some standard cameras.

In any event:

You can check out some of my on-line portfolios below:

http://www.pbase.com/ewhitney/brown_..._college_12503

http://www.pbase.com/ewhitney/umass_...team_fall_nfcs

http://www.pbase.com/ewhitney/st_johns_prep_fencing

http://www.pbase.com/ewhitney/brown_fencing__ifas

I'll be out at Boston College in a few weeks' time to photograph the B.C. Invitational, mostly shooting the Brown Univ. Team. Shouldn't be too hard to pick out, I'll be the one lugging around a blue camera bag and sporting a UMass Fencing '95 baseball cap ;-). If you're there please feel free to introduce yourself and say hello - I should be there shooting all day.

BTW: The advice sabreur gives is excellent and yes - "burn" through film: it's cheap and it allows for greater opportunity to get good shots.

Cheers,

Evan

[damianip]

Originally posted by pkt
1. First off, let's dispel the 'no flash' rule. There is no such rule. If you asked the fencers who are going to be in the fotos first, before the bout starts, most of them will say "Yes, sure." esp. if you promise to send them copies. [Yes, we all want to have fotos of us fencing in a competition...] The flash will not blind the fencers, contrary to common belief. OTOH, it'll make the rest of the gym look like it's unlit.
(snip!!!)

Unless you're at a tournament where I'm directing.

I've threatened ejection to flash photographers on several occasions when they don't respect my initial request to stop.

Whether a flash blinds an individual is dependent on many factors, but I know if I get flash directly into my eyes, I have at least a minute or two where I have a ghost floating around in my field of view. It could be that I'm light-eyed and more sensitive, but that alone is sufficient evidence for me to prevent one fencer from gaining an advantage due to flash usage.

As an official, I find it's distracting to me and potentially distracting to any fencer in the building. Given the dynamics of strip movement, you don't know which officials or fencers you may be affecting.

As a fencer I don't like it either.

One can't control all distractions to fencers at a tournament, but here is one I can and, therefore, I do.

Paolo

[edew]

I have no problems with flash, either as a fencer or a referee. I have problems with some blowhards who scream about using flash.

[damianip]

Originally posted by edew
I have no problems with flash, either as a fencer or a referee. I have problems with some blowhards who scream about using flash.

Fortunately for us, Eric, Galileo and Copernicus successfully proved that the universe does not revolve around you.

(Although the Northern California foil world might)

Paolo

[onesandzeros]

All the suggestions made were pretty right on ('cept for using a flash.... you just don't need one with a good, high ISO film). So, best place to buy cheap, high ISO film? B&H photo (www.bhphotovideo.com). 3200 BW Kodak film for $3. Best deal anywhere I have found!!! Plus you can always push the film if the lighting is really dim or the action is super fast.

Good luck, and post a link to the photos if you can!

[arcon]

This is great advise. Thanks again.

im curious.

Is there a USFA rule that flash photography would or could fall
under?

Would a directer need the support of a USFA rule if he were
directly challenged about using a Flash?

Note: Im didnt ask this question because im planning on trying to use
a flash for these pics.. The reason i posted in the first place is I knew the difficulty of this type of photography(Action/low light) and i needed
to know the best procedure in available light WITHOUT flash.

But now im curious about the rules.

anybody know what the rules say about this

I cant find my one and only copy.

arcon