The lost arts

[Adam]

I was thinking about what fighting must have really been like back in the medival days (who hasnt =), and then I thought about all the other types of weapons that existed. It seems like the only styles of combat thant survived are fencing, kendo, archery(forgot what its called). And by now these styles have become very "sportsified".

Have any other styles really survived? The real battle experience just died away and is all now forgotten after not being needed anymore? I always wonder if anyone passed on the old arts down of if they are all forgotten.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

I don't think the real battle has died. Now you have games like paintball, not same weponary, but the same concept. I cannot think of anythign else though, besides what you mentioned.

[Army Fencer]

Actually, a number of today's sports come straight from the military and combat. Nearly everything in track and field started from the Greeks and training for ancient battles (Javalein sound familiar?). Marathon began because some guy ran from a battlefield all the way back to Athens to deliever a message.

Penathalon is another sport developed straight from combat. Napolean decided that horseback riding, swimming, running, shooting, and running were ideal activities for his soldiers to have. Hence, today's sport.

That doesn't answer your question about the medieval days, but it does give some food for thought.

Good stuff.

[arcon]

Swords were heavy. Armour was heavy. Women were heavy(just kidding)

No air conditioning No skeeter spray No ice cream

[Sildar]

Originally posted by Adam
I was thinking about what fighting must have really been like back in the medival days (who hasnt =), and then I thought about all the other types of weapons that existed. It seems like the only styles of combat thant survived are fencing, kendo, archery(forgot what its called). And by now these styles have become very "sportsified".

Have any other styles really survived? The real battle experience just died away and is all now forgotten after not being needed anymore? I always wonder if anyone passed on the old arts down of if they are all forgotten.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but there are certainly more surviving martial arts traditions than that, even if you just look at European arts. There are a very few fencing schools which have retained some of the older styles of non-sport fencing such as rapier and smallsword and duelling weapons. There are also schools of savate, la canne, grand baton, Spanish knife fighting, and such things. So yes, there are a few reclusive teachers passing on old fashioned fighting styles.

In terms of Medieval battlefield styles, there really isn't much of anything that has survived; the closest thing that currently exists are the folks who learned archaic styles of personal self-defense.

It's largely a matter of economics; dang few people can make a living teaching ancient weapons when there is no more immediate need for such skills. Fortunately a few old teachers handed down a few things simply out of the desire to keep their art alive, and now some of the old fencing styles and martial arts are being preserved for the sake of cultural and historical interest, and some are being resurrected through research.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Originally posted by Army Fencer
Actually, a number of today's sports come straight from the military and combat. Nearly everything in track and field started from the Greeks and training for ancient battles (Javalein sound familiar?). Marathon began because some guy ran from a battlefield all the way back to Athens to deliever a message.

Penathalon is another sport developed straight from combat. Napolean decided that horseback riding, swimming, running, shooting, and running were ideal activities for his soldiers to have. Hence, today's sport.

That doesn't answer your question about the medieval days, but it does give some food for thought.

Good stuff.

Correct, and you could also include Greco-Roman Wrestling.....but he asked aout the Middle Ages.

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Sildar

It's largely a matter of economics; dang few people can make a living teaching ancient weapons when there is no more immediate need for such skills. Fortunately a few old teachers handed down a few things simply out of the desire to keep their art alive, and now some of the old fencing styles and martial arts are being preserved for the sake of cultural and historical interest, and some are being resurrected through research.

It's also an issue of practicality. All combat sports and martial arts exist somewhere on the continuum of safety vs. realism. Equipment and training can only go so far. Eventually you have to compromise the simulation of a realistic encounter to prevent the participants from being significantly injured.

This is relatively easy for some things. For example, in javelin, just don’t throw it at another person. However, when two combatants face off with weapons, they are going to have to be modified in someway to prevent injury to the players/students, the other option being to limit the full contact nature of the encounter.

There are a number of different groups who simulate to some degree medieval combat. Each one of them takes a different approach to suit their needs. Off the top of my head there are essentially four approaches employed to some degree or another that I can think of.

Boffer - A pole often made of PVC pipe or rattan covered in a large amount of spongy material. This minimized the risk to the competitors and requires little to no armor. SCA youth combat, numerous fantasy groups and LARPS, NERF fencing

Rattan - A pole of rattan (think solid bamboo) often reinforced with nonmetallic things like plastics. The impact of these weapons requires the use of significant armor to prevent injury due to bludgeoning. Bones have been broken. [I] SCA combat and Markland are all that come to mind, but rattan is used by some eastern martial arts as well. [I]

Live Steel - A sword made out of genuine materials, usually with ground edges both to prevent unnecessary risk and to preserve the life of the weapon. This style requires either complete armor with a solid metal helm featuring a closed face or a completely choreographed, or non contact scenario. [I] There are live steel reinactors, though I cannot think of any off hand. This category also fits professional demonstrations and entertainment seen at places like Renaissance fairs. [I]

Fencers Steel - A blunted blade made to absorb impact by flexing. Made possible because fencing simulates combat with weapons that had a narrow blade profile and were used in a ways that did not typically cause blunt trauma. Requires fencing equipment and sometimes additional protection such as padding or plastic body armor. [I] Olympic, Classical, Historical and SCA fencing fall into this category [I]

This is by no means exhaustive or comprehensive, there are a number of groups that use elements of each of these categories. The HACA/ARMA comes to mind as do some eastern martial arts like Kendo which uses shiani for sparing and bokken for kata.

[Adam]

Fortunately a few old teachers handed down a few things simply out of the desire to keep their art alive, and now some of the old fencing styles and martial arts are being preserved for the sake of cultural and historical interest, and some are being resurrected through research.

I dont know what it is about that, but the thought of those old styles just being forgotten makes me really sad.

[lochinvar]

We forgot them because we no longer need to remember them. That's a good thing, don't you think?

Isaac Asimov wrote an essay in which he discussed the weights and measures and conversion exercises he found in an old (18th century) math schoolbook vs. the weights and measures we use today. He found that the modern forms were much simpler--no surprise, there.

He then went on to form a wonderful speculation that progress in cultures/societies/technologies can be measured not only by how many new concepts we create/discover but also by how many older concepts we can afford to forget.

Who here remembers how to take cube roots with a slide-rule? Who, honestly, would want to do so now, instead of using a pocket calculator? Who knows how to make a buggy-whip?

We have newer and simpler tools, and the space taken up by the older methods can now be cleared out and put to more interesting and productive uses.

There was a time when knowledge of swordplay was a necessity, as one never knew when one might be required to defend one's life with a blade. Those days are gone, and I for one don't wish them back.

[Soldier]

Pugil sticks!! So far as I know they don't exist outside of basic training, but they're padded bars (not nearly padded enough) the length and approximate weight of an M-16 with bayonet. One end is marked red to signify the blade; they stick two people in a ring with them wearing cups, flak jackets, and football helmets. Then you beat the snot out of each other. Lots of fun.

[Inquartata]

Alas, loch, "progress" seems to mean that we have replaced swords with weapons that can kill much more efficiently, and in some cases can devastate continents. At least when the sword was the ne plus ultra of weapons armies were small and you couldn't kill millions with one.

I for one would be glad to see swords and their use return, if it also meant a return to a less monstrous scale of mayhem...

[lochinvar]

In a theoretical sense, Inq, you're probably right--but the possibility of being incinerated in a glowing mushroom cloud doesn't seem to carry the same visceral immediacy for me as meeting up with a guy (or gal!) carrying a 3-foot length of sharp steel and having malignant designs on my carcass.

You see, it's all about my needs...

[Inquartata]

We ALL have malignant designs on your carcas, loch.

Oops, did I say that out loud?

[Almightynoitall]

Lost art? not yet.

Progress is too subjective a word.

instead, we have changed as a society. not all change is good, not all is bad, and not all makes any difference.

If anything, because we have this rediculously strong tie to our roots and heritages, we still see a good movie about 'ye good olde tymes' with swords knights and other "lost" worlds.

Not lost, just dormant (by comparison)

and hey... We still have the SCA.