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Avril Roddam · 10-31-2003, 07:03 PM

... whitnesses? this is your chance to let out all the frustration!

I was at a National Cadet Comp and I was fencing in a team. I was near the warning line thingy but my foot hadn't gone over it and the ref gave me a red card! There were four people watching but he said I deffinately stepped over the line.

Oh, and at a National Cadet comp once, I was fencing epee with someone and we weren't moving much and the ref gave ME a yellow card or something for "not moving enough" , so (I might add here that I have a mask with one of those clear panels in the front, so people can see if I say something to myself) I said "what" under my breath and he gave me a yellow card for questioning the ref.! So after the bout my coach went up to the ref and asked to see the rule about not fencing enough in the rule book. Well, the ref couldn't find it so he changed it to "not fencing to the best of their ability".

Well, I feel better now.
Cheers.

pkt · 10-31-2003, 08:00 PM

t.87ii new 4th para. inserted 2002/05/21 re passivity and
t.88 re ability and sportsmanlike manner.

From British Fencing:
http://www.britishfencing.com/rulechanges.html

Article t.87: Fencing etiquette

ii) Insert a new 4th paragraph:
During the first and second periods of a direct elimination bout, when both fencers make clear their desire to stop fencing or show evident passivity, the referee will immediately call ‘halt!’ and the two fencers will take their regulation one minute rest. In pools and in the third period of a direct elimination bout, should there be passivity on the part of both fencers, the referee will warn the fencers (but without imposing a yellow card). If there is obvious repetition, the referee will call ‘halt!’ and proceed to the last minute of the time allowed for the bout. This minute will be decisive and will be preceded by a drawing of lots to decide the winner should the scores be equal at the end of the minute.

Yes, the ref in this instance goofed since t.87ii specifically states "...(but without imposing a yellow card)..."

I'm surprised that the 2002 version of the USFA rules do not have this section in it...????

PK

downunder · 11-01-2003, 12:00 AM

av, pm me the referees... i'm curious :P

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell

i had this guy down the end of the strip, and we were really close together, and i pushed towards him.... guard first, and he's moving backwards (i'm not entirely sure why i was doing it, or why he was moving backward, but thats another story

)... and i was about to force him off the end of the end of the strip when the referee called halt.

i just want to emphasise that there was no guard contact or body contact at all.

the ref gave me a yellow card for corps a corps with jostling.... saying i couldn't do that with the guard.... i would have called DT, but i was up 4-1 and didn't want to stop the momentum.

quite bizarre tho

pkt · 11-01-2003, 03:51 AM

Pardon my ignorance, but do you guys in Oz use the British Fencing version of the English translation of the FIE Rules?

If this was the same ref in both cases, you guys have a loose canon on board.

If I may suggest, next time this guy refs, videotape his calls and the actions to build a case... evidence is what you need to "help him improve". It seems to me, judging from the evidence you two have given, this ref is, shall we say, rather creative with his call. Or he needs to have his eyes examined.

Good luck,
PK

downunder · 11-01-2003, 05:32 AM

yeah we use the british translation + amendments... although i read the french one when i check rules just to make sure.

I'm pretty sure they're different referees, cos avril is a solely epee fencer, and i was doing foil at the time

Zelda · 11-02-2003, 12:08 AM

Also keep in mind in Australia there are large differences between states interpretations of the rules, let alone between weapons....(Oh the joys of self reffed pools). Can you tell I havent had any sleep lately?

KShan5[PrFC] · 11-02-2003, 12:34 AM

Well, it was at Junior Sectionals, I had a fairly new director directing the round of 32. He could not see parries. My opponent would attempt to take my blade while going forwards, slide down nearly to my bell, then hit me. Happened at least 4 times. lost the bout 15-13.

downunder · 11-02-2003, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zelda
Also keep in mind in Australia there are large differences between states interpretations of the rules, let alone between weapons....(Oh the joys of self reffed pools). Can you tell I havent had any sleep lately?

sabre's the worst.... foil isn't too bad

pkt · 11-02-2003, 04:07 AM

Zelda,
You've nailed the drawback of self-refed pools: the ref is reluctant to sanction [read card] someone for infractions...

==)=========
Gee, sounds like you guys in Oz needs to train more refs.

This is what I think most of us do and it works.
Put it this way 2 years ago a club member could not see any action and therefore was reluctant to ref.
2 years later, he actually refed in a tournament and did quite a good job too.

The trick is to get everyone to ref when he/she is not fencing. The two fencing be not afraid to let the ref know when he made a mistake ~ remember to do it in a friendly way, afterall he's learning. Of course, if you have a qualified ref around have him watch over the 'ref's' shoulder to correct him.

Of course, the student ref has to be able to take being corrected. Unfortunately that's the only way to learn correctly.

Another way is to watch videos and make the call and see how one's calls compare to the video ref's calls. Again, if you have someone qualified to hold your hands, that's the best way to learn.

Like fencing, one has to practise one's refing abilities, at every chance. Be humble and accept the fencers' input. Remind everyone to be courteous and magnanimous. Doscuss the calls, and not in an accusatory tone.

when refing, be confident, be honest, simply call what you see. Learn the rules and learn to recognise the actions. Use the correct terms and the correct hand signals.

Good luck and enjoy yourselves,

PK

Avril Roddam · 11-02-2003, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by downunder
yeah we use the british translation + amendments... although i read the french one when i check rules just to make sure.

I'm pretty sure they're different referees, cos Avril is solely epee fencer, and i was doing foil at the time

Don't tell anyone, but I fence foil @ club.

downunder · 11-02-2003, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pkt
Gee, sounds like you guys in Oz needs to train more refs.

oh its not that bad, we have a couple of FIE a grade refs, and more B graders than i can count...

i'm too young to do my FIE exam, so i've just got national qualifications.

Zelda · 11-02-2003, 07:46 PM

Which is still more then I have. One day I will get off my butt, go to one of the courses and get the qualification. The problem is money. (isnt it always??)

pkt · 11-03-2003, 02:01 AM

du,

That's good. That's where one has to start.

Zelda,

Yes, it's always time & money.

PK

Talyn · 11-03-2003, 07:20 AM

hehe I've started reffing at little comps and stuff which is fun

But honestly... every ref makes mistakes so I guess the best thing to do is live with it.

arcon · 11-03-2003, 03:59 PM

I had a director threaten to give me a yellow card for talking to
the other fencer. All i said was: "When you head leaves your shoulders, .....its over."

pkt · 11-03-2003, 06:13 PM

arcon,

you asked for it.

PK