Competitive: How many? ...

[Victor]

For those of you who fence competively (i.e. rated, or seeking a letter rating):

How many other competitive fencers work out with you at your club on a regular basis?
And how does it affect you or make you feel when you don't have anyone of high skill to challenge your skills at your club?

[Inquartata]

What do you mean by "competitive"?

There are several in my weapon who compete occasionally, locally. There are two others who compete outside the local Division, occasionally---going to maybe one tournament for every three to which I travel. Those two are about on a par with me, skill-wise. My Division has all of two Cs in sabre, including myself, and one who ought to be.

It sucks, quite frankly. But when you live in a sparsely populated, geographically large Division, you just have to do the best you can...

[Katman]

I fence mostly at my club here at the University of Houston. Out of maybe 15 or 20 foilists I'd say that three of us are competative. This isn't a big deal for me; some people like to fence a nice, relaxed bout in thier free time and really aren't focused on becoming too competative. There's not a lot I can do about that so I've resigned myself.

They still get plenty of drills, footwork, and structured bouting though. Just because they do not want to become a competative fencer in thier free time doesn't mean I will let the skill of the team slide.

That having been said, it comes to a point where they just half-*** the drills or sit down and don't fence any once drills are done. It doesn't anger me that much, but short of not allowing them to fence there's not much I can do.

Reasons for this:

1. Of the 15-20 foilists I mentioned, only about eight of them come to practice regularly.

2. Of the eight that come regularly, only about six of them can make it to competition.

These numbers include myself. They're dedicated to the team and they practice as hard as they want to while they're here, but short of visiting other clubs or going to competitions outside of SWIFA (the organization our collegiate clubs compete under) they do little else.

My only method of punishment is to demote fencers to the B foil squad. I cannot prevent them from fencing at SWIFA tournaments though, because the new format favors weapons with 2 squads each and the team would do poorly in the final ranking as a result (why punish the epeeists and saberists for the foilists?). We simply do not have enough people that can make it to compatitions for me to prevent them from fencing.

Granted, I'm new at leading a squad, so I'm facing a lot of decisions that I don't quite know how to make.

I don't feel too bad that the place I fence at the most frequently doesn't have very many high skill level fencers (myself included). I visit another fencing club on Fridays (when I'm not commited to the team) and take lessons and fence there. Over the summer, I fence at a different club in the Houston area (Salle Mauro) to keep myself sharp while others might be confined to home doing drills or just sitting around. On weekends when we don't have a SWIFA tournament, I compete in other tournaments along with the other competative fencers from UH.

I then take what I've learned and filter it back into the club with different drills and fresh advice. Since I am on the path to improving myself, the others that might not be should have a tougher time against myself and the other competative members, forcing them to improve. This is really the best we can do at this point, since we lack a coach.

I do encourage them to go to USFA tournaments and to take advantage of any deals the local clubs are willing to cut us. If they don't want to, then I don't lose any sleep over it.

[The0ne]

I'm in the Green Mountain Division, which is the newest division in the USFA, so it's pretty small. . . We have 3 C's in foil (including myself), a bunch of D's and however many E's I don't know. . . At my club we have about 10-12 "Competitive" members, with about 30-35 members total.

[dnichols]

Originally posted by Victor
For those of you who fence competively (i.e. rated, or seeking a letter rating):

How many other competitive fencers work out with you at your club on a regular basis?
And how does it affect you or make you feel when you don't have anyone of high skill to challenge your skills at your club?

This was some time ago, but it might still be pertinent.

I trained during college in an Olympic caliber program, and the main guy in my weapon (MF) was way better than the rest of us. National Champ, multiple Olympic teams, blah blah etc., etc.

His method of improving and staying sharp was to try and beat us every bout without getting hit. We were working hard to improve and were a mix of U's, C's and a few B's, so it's not like we didn't want to beat him, and we could certainly hit him when he wasn't looking. We fenced a 'winner stays up' strip, and he could be up all day when he wanted to. This is back in the 10 touch bout days, so his scores would be 10-1, 10-2, 10-0, 10-3... you get the idea.

I'm sure he would have been happy to have a few stronger fencers around him, but as we continued to improve, in no small measure to the beatings he regularly administered, the whole group got better & better until we were a mix of C's, B's and a few A's. I mean, he still took us all to the woodshed regularly, but we began to have our moments. Not because he was coming down; he won a second Nationals & made at least one more Olympic team after I was gone from the program.

Still, it was a way for him to keep sharp and focused, even during the easier bouts. One touch from one of us schmoes (until we got better) meant a mistake or lack of focus on his part. At the level he needed to be at to compete at and win Nationals, he couldn't afford any mistakes against the likes of us. Fortunately for him, we were willing to throw ourselves at him again and again, because we knew any touch we got against him was a good one, and those lessons carried over to our bouts with each other. I can imagine a scenario where frustration might set in and cause an exodus from the program, but we didn't go through that. We knew we were there to improve and needed to fence against people better than us and he was and we all knew it. We also had a superior coach (he was the reason the Olympian was there in the first place) that kept us individually moving forward and focused on our own successes and improvements. So getting beat by someone better remained less of a deal than losing bouts you should have won.

Again, I think his goals and approach to his training day were different from ours, but it clearly kept him sharp.

[Army Fencer]

Victor, I've been at this game for a few years, and fencing against other competitive fencers makes a huge difference. In college, I was basically the only strong fencer in my weapon. I grew... slowly.

I recently graduated and started fencing stronger fencers. To prep up for summer nationals, I fenced some friends down in San Diego. In the small group I fenced, there were 2 A's and 2 very strong B's. I had my strongest turn out ever because of that.

Now, I'm in the DC area, and my club has at least 5 A's that come to practice regularly, and 3 of us are nationally ranked. My fencing has improved dramatically, even from summer nationals. Granted, part of the improvement has come from better focused coaching, but having those other excellent fencers around allows me to actually work on the skills I need to use to win.

I don't wish to undermine dnichols' argument, because that's what I tried to do in college, but I have always believed that the key to getting better is fencing better fencers. If you can't get that from your club, I encourage you to travel, travel, travel and fence, fence, fence.

[Victor]

Originally posted by Army Fencer
Victor, I've been at this game for a few years, and fencing against other competitive fencers makes a huge difference. ... I have always believed that the key to getting better is fencing better fencers. If you can't get that from your club, I encourage you to travel, travel, travel and fence, fence, fence.

Uh-huh. Thought so.
It can make a big dent in your enthusiasm, too, as your peers drift away from the club for various personal reasons (school, work, relationships, etc.) until you're left with one A-rated friend and no one else, and he shows up infrequently at that.

[Army Fencer]

how close are you to substantial competitive fencing?

[Victor]

Let's just say that travelling regularly to where the fencers are is an expense I can't really afford.

[Mo]

Originally posted by Victor
Let's just say that travelling regularly to where the fencers are is an expense I can't really afford.

I personally know four people who have moved to fence, actually more. Sometimes you just have to. Two are adults the rest are kids.
Fencers go to camps and spend a week or two at a good club with competition.
It all depends on what it is worth to you.

[Victor]

Originally posted by Mo
... It all depends on what it is worth to you.

I knew it was just a matter of time before someone posted that chestnut of wisdom. Thanks.

[Inquartata]

If fencing people better than you is important to development, as I think it is, there are two things you can do, aside from moving your whole life:

(1) Travel to where they are. Yes, it can be expensive and time-consuming. The expense can be reduced if you can get others from your area to go along, so that you can pool resources. Driving is less costly than flying, usually, though more tedious. This is what I do, and I am by no means wealthy. It normally costs me less than $100 to travel to regional events, even if I go alone. NACs and the like covering several days are commensurately more dear.


(2) Get them to come to you. Hold competitions which will draw them, as with Duel in the Desert. This can be costly, too, but the expense is spread over the whole Division or at least the whole salle, rather than falling all on the individual. ( Of course if no one else cares about the quality of competitions this can be a tough sell...and there's a lot of work involved. It can also take years to build a reputation for the event. )

[Victor]

Good ideas, Inq. I hadn't considered dragging along another fencer with me. Not bad.
Thanks much.

[Aeric]

Since I come from a club of few people, my main experience and growth comes from fencing a better opponent, losing to them, and then TALKING to them after the bout.

Ask what they got you with and how they themselves get beaten by it. It's surprising how many people are open with sharing their secrets. If they're up for it, ask them to grab an empty strip and show you exactly what they did in a slower tempo. Identify what they do, what you did to lose, and what you should be doing to counter the action.

Then take the knowledge to practice and work on that for a while until you not only defend against it well, but are able to perform the action that you were defeated by.

[arcon]

If any of you have been members of Social Fencing clubs and are
serious about competing then youve experienced the frustration
this situation presents. Try dragging one of these clubs kicking
and sreaming into a competitive mindset. Actually, dont try it.
Its not worth it. Its best to move on to a club that has a reputation for what you seek.Or start one yourself. Reality is youll only get so much
from non to sometimes competing fencers. They have the right to play for just
fun but dont expect a challenge or any real decent training programs that meet the level needed for serious competition.
If youre lucky there will be a few that can challenge your ability.
A few will not sustain for long the challenge thats needed to hone your skills .Soon youll know their best moves and youll need more than is offered.

[lfortier]

Even though I've only been fencing for about 10 months, I consider myself a competitive fencer; I go to as many tournaments that I can possibly go to, so I can get a better rating than an "E", and I go to every lesson. Sometimes I may take private lessons before a national meet.

[arcon]

Yes, everytime ive had private lessons before a tournament it has
helped. Im not sure if its just a confidence builder of if the actual
elements of the lesson improved my performance. Maybe it was both.

[Almightynoitall]

I live in Northern Nevada, so 'competetive' doesn't mean the same... We're more or less isolated from mostgenuine competition... and when we hold tournaments, for the most part... We are stuck with the same fencers we've fenced for years. Occasionally, we'll organize a road trip to Chico/Vegas etc. But for the most part, competetive is only as good as we seem to get against each other. I'm lucky in that I've fenced for less than a year, and most of the people I fence with have been doing this for years on end, but they don't/probably won't get much better, and we new fencers may have a glass ceiling.

[arcon]

It difficult to reach a higher plain unless youre challenged..

Ive always loved to fence more experienced fencers.

when you score aganst them and occasionally get close to beating them its unreal , What you learn and what you feel you accomplish is your reward.