question about Epee shims

[adidas33k]

I was going through my clubs equipment the other day when I noticed that we don't have any Epee shims. I was just wondering what the extact size needs to be and also if there was a cheaper alternative to buying them from a fencing vendor...ie handware or autoparts store?

[Artisan]

I believe you need:
- 1.5 mm +/- 0.05 mm
- 0.5 mm +/- 0.05 mm

Since shims cost about $20/ set, a cheap way is to buy appropriate thickness shim stock and cut it up into usable sizes and make notches to fit under tip. Though this requires either some specialized tools or patient labor. Even if you buy Automotive (machinists) shims, you still have to make the half-round notch without leaving a burr.

[lochinvar]

Actually, you don't really need the half-round notch. It's merely a convenient way to check the distance between the tip and the barrel all at once. You get the same effect by inserting the shim between tip and barrel and "twirling" the shim around the diameter of the tip.

Some think the weapon is illegal if the diameter of the tip shaft doesn't fit inside the notch, but this is erroneous. The rules say nothing about the diameter of the tip shaft, only the diameter of the button end.

I've already had this discussion with three directors who wanted to disqualify my weapon (it's got a Russian tip, whose tip shaft is slightly thicker than the Uhlman--enough so that the 'notch' won't slip around it). Fortunately for me, the armorer has always backed me up. But it's caused me to view the notch with a very jaundiced eye; I think it would eliminate a needless cause of confusion if it wasn't there.

[DangerMouse]

Originally posted by lochinvar
You get the same effect by inserting the shim between tip and barrel and "twirling" the shim around the diameter of the tip.

Aack! Don't twirl! Insert the shim on each side, but don't twirl as this wears down both your tip and the shim!

[adidas33k]

Thanks so much. I guess now all I have to do is decide if I'll just get a stock and make my own, or fork out the cash on a ready one.
Also on a random side note, I love your screen name Danger Mouse! That cartoon is the whole reason my family got cable TV when I was a kid.

[DHCJr]

Artisian is right. If the gauge does not fit in, does not fail. But let me dispel some misconceptions. There is a maximum size to the base of the tip 7.7mm (M19.1). The trouble is the design of the Uhlmann shims and most other shims. If you widen the groove to allow the maximum size they will be easily bent and thus making the shims unusable. Also tolerances, there are none. Tolerances are something new to the FIE. Until Dan DeChaine became a member of the SEMI commission there were no tolerances for weights, weapon or body cord resistance. Also don’t be caught ‘twirling’ any gauges, especially Armorer’s gauges as DangerMouse stated. When you test always press down, let up, turn to another position and test again. 3 tests are sufficient. ‘Twirling’ will wear down the gauges.

For the 2000 Pentathlon World Championship, we had a similar problem. None of the Uhlmann gauges the organizers had supplied went around the Italian tips. This did not cause a problem until one weapon failed. All the directors knew to use the side of the gauge. The Italian team insisted on using their gauges, which the weapon fit in and passed. I checked with the gauges from the Armory, which was one of my personal Prieur gauges that have been taken out to fit all legal tips and the weapon failed. (Note: don’t ask for the Official Gauges, because they are the ones on the piste.) I checked the gauges the Italian team had and they were 0.57mm. For the rest of the tournament, one of my backup gauges followed the Italian team and that was the Official Gauge for the strip. The Prieur gauges are a different design and do not have a tendency to warp.

Whenever I give a clinic, I always suggest that fencers do Not get ‘Real’ gauges. I tell them to get automotive gauges. Two reasons, first the gauges are Go/No Go gauges. You can’t tell if the tip is barely passing (0.499) or barely working (0.001) or somewhere in between. Second, how do you know the ‘Official’ gauges at the competition you fence at are accurate. If there are thin shims on the piste, you can’t complain, they are the ‘Official’ gauges.

What I do when I’ve gone with the US Team and for that matter with the Long Beach Team for over 25 years, I have an extra shim for testing the teams weapons just before every bout. Sometimes it is a 0.45 and sometimes it is a 0.48, depending on what I expect with the ‘Official’ gauges. I also have a set of automotive shims when I am preparing for control and doing repairs to make sure the tips are between 0.40 and 0.48.

[Artisan]

...Then there is the calibrated eyeball...

No doubt we've seen the thumbnail test, but last spring at a fairly large tournament, when I was called to the strip to fence a team mate at epee, there was a weight but no shims. The referee inspected my tip for screws, checked the weight, and then slowly depressed the tip with his thumb, squinting a bit. Nods to me, ok.He did not use his thumbnail, but merely LOOKED at the displacement before the light went on. Does same with my opponent, presses tip with thumb while squinting, and declairs the tip has failed and starts to write down the yellow card. My opponent's eyes bulge..."you don't expect me to change this weapon if you don't test with a shim - no way!" The ref, who's english was limited simply shrugs and says "no good." A brief debate ensues, during which I offer to allow the weapon (as he is a team mate) meanwhile a shim is sent for. When it arrives, the weapon does indeed fail and my chagrinned opponent is compelled to apologize. I suspect after that the ref could have made any errant call, bungled the score or otherwise been incompetent and gotten no dispute from either of us. I still tease my team mate from time to time - squinting at his tip while testing guards before a practice bout.

[MyraTrue]

The fencing post www.thefencingpost.com actually sells shims at $16 a set, I believe. And I have recently learned that there is NO subsitute for a set of weights and shims. I might be labeled obsessive, but I've taken to taking my clubs sets to tournaments (I'm usually the only one to go) and testinge everything when I get there- one last time. I've had several weapons that have needed springs lengthened or shortened, but I found this out BEFORE I got onto the stip, failed, and was carded.

And while its not usually my weapons, I've found myself fixing other people's weapons often as not. But weights and shims are on MY wishlist right now!

[DHCJr]

But have you checked how accurate those weights you bring. At the Long Beach Invitational, the Fencing Post supplied 6 sets of weights and shims. Half the shims were not acceptable to use and of the weights, all but one was within the legal tolerance, but half were just barely. They were running around 499 for Foil and just over 748 for Epee.

As I said above, even if you get shims, have some automotive shims also, to know if you are close to failing or close to not working.

Also with weights, for personal use, get a heavy one or add something to make them heavy.

Don't expect the organizers have checked the weights used on the piste.

[CvilleFencer]

I have a really stupid question. I have just recently started fencing epee in tourneys, but I am by no means new to fencing/building/wiring epees. There is one thing I do not know however. What exactly does the shim test for? I do not think I understand the purpose of the shim test.

This past tourney I had at least 1 yellow card every pool and DE bout, and a couple of red cards, all because my tips kept failing the shim test. I would take them apart afterwards, play with the spring just a hair, and they would then pass the test. By the time I got back to the strip for my next bout they would fail again!

I guess my question is two parts:

What does the shim test do?

What are some ways to keep your tips passing once you have them set?

I do not understand why they were so iffy this last tourney as I have never had that problem before, and two of the four weapons (all failed at least twice) were brand new! Okay, one more question. Would the Estoc screwless tips take care of this problem? I hate giving up points in pool boughts for something so silly!

Thanks all!

[DHCJr]

You asked a lot of questions. Let see if I can give you understandable answers.

The answer to what does the shim test does is it checks that your tip travels at least a millimeter before the touch is registered. It does this by first making sure you have at least 1.5mm of free travel and the 0.5mm is to check it does not register before going at least the 1.0mm.

There was a FIE requirement that tips be made that could not go out of adjustment. The success was of most was not favorable, so the requirement was dropped.

Now for what you can do. First note that the travel spring is not robust. Treat it with care.

First when you are adjusting the spring, never pull on it nor twist it counter-clockwise, even when you want to lengthen it. If you want to lengthen it, turn it clockwise, but don't push it down and it will jump the track thereby lengthening. If you try twisting it off, you will most likely loosen the spring and thus cause it to not stay.

Some will suggest loctite, but if you use it be very carefully. I have seen have a chance to get a black card for doing that. They insulated the tip from the spring and got touches on the guard of their opponent. It was obvious they didn't know what they were doing, but they did get a scare.

[JEC]

There are two shim tests for epee (see also bold below):
One to measure a minimum of 1.5mm between the cilinder and the back to the tip and the other to measure that when the tip is depress at 0.5mm, there is no light. In this manner, you are assured that the tip must travel one mm with a force sufficient to depress the large spring, which should be able to withstand a weight of 0.750 Kg, to score a touch.

An easy explanation is from Mike's Website (he used to contribute in this forum some time ago):

"The flat surface at the top which is used to score ponts is a little larger that 1/4 inch in diameter.
Epeeists simulate dueling, therefore they must hit with enough pressure and penetration to break the skin.

The larger sping is the pressure spring, it holds the tip up and provides 750grams of pressure. A hit with less than 750g will not register. The smaller spring is the contact spring, it is adjusted in length to insure that the tip must travel one mm to score a touch, when the tip moves down, the contact spring touches the two contacts at the bottom. When the contacts are touched and thus connected, the current travels from one to the other and signals that a touch has been made.
The contact spring is also connected to the tip. If the tip is in contact with either the metal surface of the strip or the opponent's bell guard, the current will travel from one contact, through the tip into that object disabling the ciruit between the two contacts. No touch will be scored.

The penetration is measured by placing a "shim" of 1.5mm under the tip, then placing a 0.5mm shim and depressing the tip. The point must not score with the 0.5mm shim in place."

This is his website:

http://www.geocities.com/strydermike/epee.html

[DHCJr]

Originally posted by Artisan
I believe you need:
- 1.5 mm +/- 0.05 mm
- 0.5 mm +/- 0.05 mm

Since shims cost about $20/ set, a cheap way is to buy appropriate thickness shim stock and cut it up into usable sizes and make notches to fit under tip. Though this requires either some specialized tools or patient labor. Even if you buy Automotive (machinists) shims, you still have to make the half-round notch without leaving a burr.

I want to publicly apologize and thank Artisan. After his post I stated there was no tolerances in the rulebook. Boy, was I wrong! It was right there in T-44. I usually am very good about the M rules being an Armorer. Having assisted in organizing tournaments for over 25 years, up to the international level, I do fairly well with the O rules. But, I keep on finding, I need to work a lot more on the T rules.

There is the saying, “You don’t know Jack!” In fencing, you have to know TOM, not just OM.

Thank you again Artisan, I needed that touch of humility.

[MyraTrue]

Loch-

actually, I'm glad you posted about the Russian tips. I was directing a couple of bouts at a tournament this weekend, and was puzzled when I came across an epee tip that WOULD NOT fit into the 1.5 mm shim groove. Boggled my mind for a minute, than this came to mind. I mentioned to the fencer that if someone told him the tip was illegal (it did fit the shim, just didn't fit into the groove), it wasn't.

My'