Bad Fencing Tryouts in Highschool

[fencingguy]

were you cut from your highschool team? Or not allowed to compete somewhere? You seem to have a personal issue with this rule. If he didn't make the team, too bad for him. He wasn't capable of performing at the level required for participation. We wouldn't allow wrestlers to compete at a "highschool" tournament if they weren't a part of their highschool team. Nor would we let 5 guys get together and enter the state basketball tournament if they couldn't make their highschool squad. For the same reasons, if your highschool offers you an opportunity to participate in fencing and you either choose not to accept it, or are not allowed to do so, then you can't participate in their sanctioned tournaments. It's as simple as that. Frankly, missing this one tournament shouldn't be the be all or end all for an aspiring fencer. There are a ton of other opportunities for him to fence, and the school is not denyng him the right to compete in USFA events. I can probably guarantee that Adam will make his team and if he doesn't, and chooses to fence for the CAAFC or the IFC his sights will most likely be set a bit higher than just a highschool championship. On top of which no one ever said he couldn't try out again next year. A season of fencing at a club, and taking lessons, should put him a good ways above the rest of the people on his team in terms of fencing ability.

[fencingguy]

Originally posted by DanInMI
Also, I am not convinced that this rule actually exists. The web page says:

" Any high school fencer (9th-12th grade) is invited to participate. Individual, club, and high school team trophies are awarded. "

It makes no exception for students of schools that have teams that are members of the conference. Of course, that could be due to the fact that the page is not very comprehensive.

I know that if Adam was my kid I would be taking him to the tourneys and challenging them to show us the rule. And if the rule exists, I would challenge the rule in court.

You would challenge the rule in court? Just to get your kid in a tournament that isn't even that good?

Your case would probably be dismissed on the grounds that he is being granted ample opportunity to compete through sanctioned channels. The most similar case I can think of, that you might base yours on, is the boy who wanted to play field hockey on the girls team. While his suit was successful, he based it on the point that no equal opportunity was provided for males to participate in field hockey at the highschool level. No men's team, no clubs. You cannot make that argument because a team is provided and he would not have been cut based on gender or some other "non applicable" characteristic, but on an apparent lack of ability. Considering that only the top 4 fencers in each weapon from a highschool are allowed to compete at the tournament in question, and that each weapon averages around 8 fencers per team, his inability to make the team would indicate that his ability places him below the 8 fencers who did make the team, and potentially below any number of others who tried out and were also cut. So by being allowed to compete he is creating a very unfair situation for those who did make the team, but were not allowed to compete because they were not the best 4 fencers on their team.

Fencers from schools that do not have a team are also limited to a maximum of four entrants, so if more than four wish to compete it is up to them to decide which four are the best representatives of the school. In their case, if your son were the 5th best fencer there he, again, would not be allowed to compete. The rule requiring schools to limit their number of entrants to four is very easy to defend based on tournament size and available referees, so I doubt you would be able to call that into to question either.

Finally your son is not being denied the right to compete in the sport of fencing because of he is not competing in this tournament. Numerous opportunities exist for him to pursue the sport on his own. Clubs provide accessable training environments with good coaches, and the USFA provides numerous tournaments throughout the year that are age restricted as well as open. You can't even argue use Brown v. Board of Education because in this case, while the teams and clubs are seperate and not equal, the benefit easily lies of the side of the clubs where the better fencers typically come from and where coaching is much more personal and one on one than in highschool teams.

My real point for listing a few reasons why your threatened suit wouldn't work is to point out that your really getting worked up over nothing. I think you'd be better served by telling your son to work hard so he can make the team next year than suing to get him involved in a tournament he isn't ready to compete in any way. Life isn't fair. In the words of Dennis Leary "Life sucks, get a helmet."

[Rolls]

Hey, I'm just impressed that there are High Schools that offer fencing. When I was in high school, I would have surely tried out. And if I didn't make it, I would probably be excited because that meant that not only was I not the only fencer there but there were also fencers better than me.

I would love to see a program of this type in my area.

Rolls.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by fencingguy
were you cut from your highschool team? Or not allowed to compete somewhere? You seem to have a personal issue with this rule.

No my school had no fencing team. And i was never cut from any sport (i was fortunate in that i went to a school that was very small and desperate for atheletes, so I was awarded 6 varsity letter in high school.)

Originally posted by fencingguy
If he didn't make the team, too bad for him. He wasn't capable of performing at the level required for participation.

Yes he does......there is NO level requirement to fence as an individual.(if he is from a school outside the conference.

Originally posted by fencingguy
Frankly, missing this one tournament shouldn't be the be all or end all for an aspiring fencer. [/b]

This is not one tournament...it is a series of tournaments.

Originally posted by fencingguy
There are a ton of other opportunities for him to fence, and the school is not denyng him the right to compete in USFA events. [/b]

I agree ...that was my point in my first post

[fencingguy]

Nevermind, this really isn't worth arguing about

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by fencingguy

Your case would probably be dismissed on the grounds that he is being granted ample opportunity to compete through sanctioned channels. The most similar case I can think of, that you might base yours on, is the boy who wanted to play field hockey on the girls team. While his suit was successful, he based it on the point that no equal opportunity was provided for males to participate in field hockey at the highschool level.

No my argument is not at all similar to that. I would not be challenging the school...I would be challenging the conference that has two seperate standards for allowing high school students to compete. Students IN the conference must tryout. Students outside of the conference need not tryout.

Originally posted by fencingguy

Fencers from schools that do not have a team are also limited to a maximum of four entrants, so if more than four wish to compete it is up to them to decide which four are the best representatives of the school. In their case, if your son were the 5th best fencer there he, again, would not be allowed to compete. The rule requiring schools to limit their number of entrants to four is very easy to defend based on tournament size and available referees, so I doubt you would be able to call that into to question either.

Now where did you get that rule? I am not saying it isn't true, it's just that the conference website very clearly says:
" Any high school fencer (9th-12th grade) is invited to participate. Individual, club, and high school team trophies are awarded. "

(It doesn't say anything about "only four students from your school.")
That would seem to indicate that twenty kids from my son's high school could show up and fence.

Originally posted by fencingguy
My real point for listing a few reasons why your threatened suit wouldn't work is to point out that your really getting worked up over nothing. I think you'd be better served by telling your son to work hard so he can make the team next year than suing to get him involved in a tournament he isn't ready to compete in any way. Life isn't fair. In the words of Dennis Leary "Life sucks, get a helmet."

Really I am not worked up about anything. My son is not at issue here. He can show up and fence in their tournament any time he likes, he doesn't even have to tryout. Quite frankly I don't think that fencing in high school tourneys is all that important, there is much better competition in USFA tourneys.

But Adam seems to feel that he can beat most of the fencers that DID make the team at New Trier....If I was him I would show up at the competition and attempt to register as an individual. I would press the issue, pointing out that there is no reason that he should be excluded if they are going to let other fencers that did not make tryouts fence (the ones that are from outside the conference) And point out that the conference webpage says "Any high school fencer (9th-12th grade) is invited to participate..." in their tourneys.

I think it would be very cool if he did better than the fencers on the team.

[big poppa]

As a high school fencing coach, the stories i could tell. I look for desire to learn and work . Our motto is " willin to work , willing fight , willing to win" Im very . I do not trust so called natural talent. in short if you can't or won't handle footwork then you are cut yet I will work with a person is willing try. my best fencers have this is common. they are the first to arrive and the last to leave. they never miss bouts, they pratice, they listen.