[CFML] fleche

Jeff says --

> Now, wouldn't be interesting to *discuss* the pros
> and cons of the fleche, or bind vs. beat, or ripose
> with or without opposition, or fencing with absence
> of blade - without the inflamed speech?

Okay, I'll run with this. I'd like to talk about the
fleche specifically, because I think it's an
interesting phenomenon...

Firstly: is the fleche classical? No, it's not; if
we're practicing strictly classical fencing, then we
must leave it out. Is it risky? Yes, of course it
is, and is definitely riskier than most other attacks
-- in my SF days I saw a lot of people impaled on
fleches. But as other people have pointed out, any
attack carries with it some risk, and as with any
other attack, it seems to me that you can minimize
this risk if you know what you're doing.

Throwing the classical vs. SF arguments out the window
for a moment, and acknowledging that the fleche is
risky (especially in a duelling context), it can be a
very powerful tactic when executed in the right time
and with proper opposition. It seems to me somewhat
similar to an attack on the pass in rapier, in that
it's a good way to close distance quickly, and also to
attack your opponent from a greater distance. The
opponent sees you farther away, and so is not
immediately expecting the attack to come. Surprise!
If you know how to wait for the right moment and can
hold his weapon to prevent a stop-thrust, then you
have potentially a very nice tool in your kit. It's
not something to rely on (most sport fencers use it
only occassionally, because of the risks involved),
but could be just the thing to get you out of a tight
spot. In a duel? Probably not, but once in awhile it
might just be a good course of action...

Any thoughts on this?

I also wondered if anyone knew any of the history of
the fleche? When & how did it originate? Who came up
with it?

Respectfully,
Russell

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>Is it risky? Yes, of course it is, and is definitely riskier than most
other attacks

I have always considered it prudent to be able to recover with ease from
ones attacks should they be parried, essentially always leave oneself a
way out, and have always used it as an argument for fencing with aplomb.
The fleche, to me, does not seem to offer this option.

Regards,
Neville Gawley,
Limerick School of Arms


-----Original Message-----
From: Russell Hogg [mailto:durendal78@yahoo.com]
Sent: 30 October 2003 17:39
To: classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CFML] fleche

Jeff says --

> Now, wouldn't be interesting to *discuss* the pros
> and cons of the fleche, or bind vs. beat, or ripose
> with or without opposition, or fencing with absence
> of blade - without the inflamed speech?

Okay, I'll run with this. I'd like to talk about the
fleche specifically, because I think it's an
interesting phenomenon...

Firstly: is the fleche classical? No, it's not; if
we're practicing strictly classical fencing, then we
must leave it out. Is it risky? Yes, of course it
is, and is definitely riskier than most other attacks
-- in my SF days I saw a lot of people impaled on
fleches. But as other people have pointed out, any
attack carries with it some risk, and as with any
other attack, it seems to me that you can minimize
this risk if you know what you're doing.

Throwing the classical vs. SF arguments out the window
for a moment, and acknowledging that the fleche is
risky (especially in a duelling context), it can be a
very powerful tactic when executed in the right time
and with proper opposition. It seems to me somewhat
similar to an attack on the pass in rapier, in that
it's a good way to close distance quickly, and also to
attack your opponent from a greater distance. The
opponent sees you farther away, and so is not
immediately expecting the attack to come. Surprise!
If you know how to wait for the right moment and can
hold his weapon to prevent a stop-thrust, then you
have potentially a very nice tool in your kit. It's
not something to rely on (most sport fencers use it
only occassionally, because of the risks involved),
but could be just the thing to get you out of a tight
spot. In a duel? Probably not, but once in awhile it
might just be a good course of action...

Any thoughts on this?

I also wondered if anyone knew any of the history of
the fleche? When & how did it originate? Who came up
with it?

Respectfully,
Russell

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/


----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier
blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


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> Throwing the classical vs. SF arguments out the window...
> for a moment, and acknowledging that the fleche is
> risky (especially in a duelling context), it can be a
> very powerful tactic when executed in the right time
> and with proper opposition.

Boiling it down to it's usefulness in a bout one has to consider the
dynamics of the different weapons (foil, epee, sabre) and how many
touches you are fencing to.

Even though you are wanting to put aside CF vs. SF in this discussion,
the number of touches you are fencing to will in effect also show the
differences between the fleches' usefulness in SF & CF.

Based on 23 years of sport fencing competition and coaching and 23 years
of classical fencing and teaching I would rank them as follows:

In a 15 touch foil bout it can be useful. (SF DE Bouts)
In a 5 touch foil bout it's risky. (SF Pool Bouts)
In a 3 touch foil bout it's too risky. (CF Bouts)

In a 15 touch epee bout it's very useful. (SF DE Bouts)
In a 5 touch epee bout it's useful. (SF Pool Bouts)
In a 1 touch epee bout it's suicide. (CF Bouts)

In a 15 touch sabre bout it can be useful. (SF DE Bouts)
In a 5 touch sabre bout it's risky. (SF Pool Bouts)
In a 1 touch sabre bout it's suicide. (CF Bouts)

For those of you who have no SF experience DE stands for Direct
Elimination.
SF tournaments usually consist of two rounds. In the pools (groups of 5
to 8 fencers) each fencer bouts once with each other fencer. The
rankings from the pools determine who you will bout with in the Direct
Elimination round. Bouts in the pools are fought to 5 touches.
Bouts in Direct Elimination rounds are fought to 15 touches.
Once you lose a DE bout you are out of the event.

In sport foil and sabre competition I used the fleche sparingly and in
coaching I recommended that it be used sparingly in pool bouts (5 touch
bouts) and a little less sparingly in Direct Elimination Bouts (15 touch
bouts). In sport epee with it's lack of right of way and the goal being
to hit the opponent 1/23 of a second before he hits you, I used it much
more often.

Of course in sport fencing you use whatever works best against your
opponent and if it keeps getting you points you milk it till he figures
out how to stop it. However, any technique you use too often will soon
get figured out and stopped by your opponent.

Since the fleche wasn't used during the classical era it is prohibited
in classical events.

As far as Paddy's comments about the list devolving into a "Pedantic CF
vs. SF Debate Forum."

I don't think the discussion of sport fencing should be off topic on
this list if it is done in a comparison with classical fencing in an
effort to educate sport fencers (and classical fencers) who have joined
the list to gain a better understanding of what Classical fencing is all
about.

For many who join this list Sport Fencing is their only reference point.
So those of us who know both styles well enough have to start there with
them and the differences. It should however be done in a
non-condescending way with mutual respect for those who enjoy each style
of fencing.

Of course this list belongs to Kim Moser, the moderator, and therefore
he has the final word on what is and is not allowed.

Sincerely,
Rez Johnson
Mississippi Academy of Arms
Teaching Fencing since 1980



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The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


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