>Brian Schenck said:
>Jeff's point is not that these are not "martial
arts", rather...
>Bob Lyle said:
>> Then judo, vastrious forms of karate, tae kwan do
and gung fu are also not martial arts because
Brian captures what I was trying to express - thanks!
Clearly those are indeed martial arts, and SF is
consequently one by the same criteria. Kumite
competition in karate allows deviation from classic
form and is "results based" within a very wide range
of permitted actions and stances. If you hit
somebody you'll get your point even if you didn't
chamber your arm as required by classic Shotokan (an
improvised example, don't nitpick it please). And,
there are kata competitions, and fighting
competition where style is mandatory, so all points
of view can be accommodated.
I keep my rear arm up, as I was trained classically.
I really doubt that this would make much a
difference in a duel with sharps. I think the front
arm is a lot more important. As Rez mentioned, Nadi
made changes in form that were not purely classical.
Did that make him a bad fencer? If he's "bad" for
those things, and sliding in the lunge (which shocks
*me*) then how relevant are criteria that would
label that as "bad"?
Also, just as with SF, there are lots of actions
used in martial arts that are either risky or would
be unlikely to be used successfully on the street:
using high or spinning kicks is a popular example.
This stuff is controversial in the Asian martial
arts world, with very similar arguments to what I've
seen here.
For what it's worth, just as there are karateka that
argue that high kicks can be very street effective,
I think it clear that the fleche (just to name one
technique that came up in recent posts) is also very
effective when used at the right time and place. It
can be devastating, and I cannot agree with a
statement that use of the fleche is inconsistent
with fencing as martial art. It's a risk, but so is
not taking the chance to kill your opponent if he
opens a line when you're in good position to make
the fleche. Missing that opportunity and giving him
a chance to make his own attack might get you
killed. Making a lunge, especially a deep one, is
also risky. Should we stop lunging?
Fencing has risks. SF lets you make more of them and
get away with it - that seems to be an inevitable
consequence of not bleeding if you screw up. CF also
has risks and there's nothing in it that punishes CF
foil (for example) from being as aggressive as SF,
which would be risky "if it were sharp". CF
practitioners don't bleed any more than SF.
Now, if we were to have form/kata competitions in
fencing where classical form was mandatory, as some
in CF do, then that's fine. I respect that (and have
had some interesting private mail discussing this
and related topics). However, that goes into Brian's
point about deviating from pure "if it were sharp"
thought. Think on how shots to the back are often
not seen or called in CF; lethal shots that are
"seen" by the electrical scoring box. In that
example SF is far more realistic.
Personally, I'm willing to treat all forms of
fencing with respect as martial arts. Unfortunately,
it seems necessary in CF to ritualistically insult
SF at regular intervals. That's a shame.
Now, wouldn't be interesting to *discuss* the pros
and cons of the fleche, or bind vs. beat, or ripose
with or without opposition, or fencing with absence
of blade - without the inflamed speech? Oh, it's the
Internet - I forgot!
cheers to all,
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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