ROW Question

[mollusk]

Originally posted by oiuyt
Fencer X gets the touch, he still has PIL. Preperation doesn't apply, PIL is NOT an attack or otherwise an offensive action, it's a special case situation.

If fencer X has PIL s/he can lose ROW in one of several ways:
1) fencer X withdraws his/her arm
2) fencer X attempts a disceive without fencer Y (fencer X's opponent) attempting an engagement
3) fencer Y finds fencer X's blade

In a somewhat related but slightly different category, the PIL can also fail to arrive (or in the case in sabre, fail to arrive with the point). In this case the PIL had ROW but failed (in the case of sabre, the light generated by the edge of the weapon would be the result of a replacement).

-B

Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure what the correct answer is because the rules are silent on which rule (t 56.6 or t 56.8) takes priority (no pun intended) and hence made my best guess. I had been taught that PIL could be maintained with advance, retreat, lunge, and fleche (in foil).

[edew]

The answer is how the referee interprets the action. If the referee considers what you have to be a point in line, then advancing and retreating, even with cross overs (except in sabre, of course), would still have the point in line. If the referee considers what you're doing to be an attack, then cross-overs would be part of the preparation of the attack, and that the arm is fully extended to be considered as the end of the attack.

Of course, the referee needs to consider what the other fencer is doing as well. So it can't be answered in a vacuum (devoid of what the other fencer is doing), nor without interpretation by the referee.

The referee makes the interpretation when he says, after calling halt, "fencer on the left establishes a point in line..."

Then he considers that to be a point in line. If he then invalidates the point in line by saying the person lunged, crossed over, or something, then you can contest the call because the referee then is misapplying the rules.

[Brazilianboy308]

I've been fencing for a year and there are two guys at my club who flick really well and I can's seem to defend myself real well against it. I do a false attack sometimes for them to esecute the flick and screw up but i can't seem to figure out how to defend myself when they are running me down the strip and preparing to flick me.

Any advice please.

-Jon

[oiuyt]

Downunder- It was stated that X had PIL. Unless something breaks the PIL he still has it. Crossover steps have NOT converted his PIL into an attack.

Wizardly- Attempting a deceive at a time when the opponent is not attempting an engagement breaks the line because you are no longer in the "specific position in which the fencer's sword arm is kept straight and the point of his weapon continually threatens his opponent's valid target". Note that further specifics on what the specific position is aren't explicitly given, it's a generally used interpretation that the shoulder, hand, and point must be co-linear and the weapon must be threatening a high-line target (ie basically parallel to the floor). During the attempted deceive this is no longer the case. Usually because the three points become non-co-linear (assuming the person does the decieve properly whith his/her fingers), occasionally by shifting the aiming point away from accepted targets (decieving by pivoting at the shoulder). If either of these occur then the PIL no longer exists. If the opponent doesn't attack the PIL can be reestablished, but at least for that bit of time it's gone. If the opponent had already begun an attack or chooses to do so while the PIL is broken then the reestablished PIL is an attempt at counter-attack instead.

As to why t.56.8 doesn't apply.... t.56 is specifically discussing what constitutes a valid attack. A PIL is NOT an attack. NONE of the subcategories of t.56 apply to the person with PIL. A couple of them mention PIL because the OPPONENT has PIL in those cases. Continuous crossing over is a preperation when done by the attacker.

-B :)

[Wizardly]

::head expands with acquisition of new knowledge::

Thanks for the info.

And thanks for answer the questions.

[Rolls]

Well, this certainly has helped me understand PIL more. I was trying to look at it as an attack (which would have an end) which I now see that is not the case.

Thanks for the clarification.

Rolls.

[vegan]

Um . . .
What happens if A establishes PIL, and then starts a series of crossover steps, and at some point stops, and changes direction (starts to retreat), at which time B begins a straight attack, they both hit, and the line is not removed.
I am aware that this is up to the director, but I am curious to see what people think. Is this a distance repost (get away go), and a touch for B, or a PIL, and a touch for A?
Cheers,
B.

[edew]

A PIL has priority over everything else, unless it is beaten, moved, or undone. Advancing and retreating does not undo a PIL.

How are you envisioning a distance riposte (and by whom)?

A can advance or retreat with a PIL and it remains a PIL.

[labouche]

Originally posted by Brazilianboy308
I've been fencing for a year and there are two guys at my club who flick really well and I can's seem to defend myself real well against it. I do a false attack sometimes for them to esecute the flick and screw up but i can't seem to figure out how to defend myself when they are running me down the strip and preparing to flick me.

Any advice please.

-Jon

There are many things you can do to stop the flick, however all of them will take practice.

1) back up and parry

2) present a point in line while backing up

3) back up really fast to get them to chase you and then quickly jump in while slightly turning your shoulders.....this is very effective if you get good at it.

There are moer ways but these are the basics.

[downunder]

Originally posted by oiuyt
Downunder- It was stated that X had PIL. Unless something breaks the PIL he still has it. Crossover steps have NOT converted his PIL into an attack.

differentiate between a fleche and a person with PIL running forward...?


apart from the awful technique of the fencer

[westcoastsabre]

If A is attacking and B comes out with PIL in FOIL, and there are 2 lights, who gets the touche.

[downunder]

if B has PIL, then B,

but i think you imply a counter attack by B, so A

[edew]

Originally posted by downunder
differentiate between a fleche and a person with PIL running forward...?


apart from the awful technique of the fencer

Up to the referee. If the referee says, "fleche..." then it's a fleche. If the referee says, "point in line..." then it's a point in line.

[downunder]

*sigh*

fair enough