How do you handle this type of fencer

[CSports]

I was a spectator a local Tourney this last weekend.
I also posted this on rec.fencing, so if some see this as a duplication sorry

I noticed as I watched one fencer, his first move was to look like a fleche,but it always wound up in direct body contact - shoulder to shoulder -hit(almost like a football linebacker hitting a wide receiver) and it always took the other fencer out of the game mentally and physically. He knocked the wind out of one fencer. The second time I saw this you could also hear the hit 3 strips away. This didn't happen once or twice, I observed it at least 4 times. What is your suggestions on how to handle this type of supposed epee' fencer?

The second situation-
Last year I saw one of our fencers, fence - fencer A. fencer A's first move was to go right past the bell guard and a direct vertical hit on the wrist, using the thick section of the blade going across the wrist, leaving an unbelievable welt. I thought it probably was an accident! The fencer said his hand was numb for a few days.
This is an epee’ event and it IS NOT an attempt at a point, it is clearly to come across the wrist. in attempt to physically disable the opponent.
This year I saw Three fencers from our club get the same first hit and I saw another clubs fencers with the same hit. Two of the fencers said, as did the fencers said last year- your hand goes numb and blade control is almost impossible. What is your suggestions on how to handle this type of fencer?

Say there is no real bout commitee

I would like answers besides punching him out
thank you

[veeco]

Originally posted by CSports

I noticed as I watched one fencer, his first move was to look like a fleche,but it always wound up in direct body contact - shoulder to shoulder -hit(almost like a football linebacker hitting a wide receiver) and it always took the other fencer out of the game mentally and physically. He knocked the wind out of one fencer. The second time I saw this you could also hear the hit 3 strips away. This didn't happen once or twice, I observed it at least 4 times. What is your suggestions on how to handle this type of supposed epee' fencer?

If you're the referee, and this is jostling, card him. If it's only corps a corps, then nothing.
If you're a fencer, don't let him fleche, or catch him off guard by retreating on his fleche and hitting him afterwards. Or parry his attack and riposte. After he's lost a few points doing that he should stop.

[I_luv_saber]

Well... I'm a saber fencer and would just as soon beat both of 'em to a bloody pulp . Seeing as that isn't much of an option... I say, for the first fencer, to ask your coach to teah you a good way to handle countering a fleche. For the other, if he gets that close, jab him in the stomach. At that close I imagine it eould hurt like hell, though getting your arm far back enough to jab him would be a trick.

[Nialscorva]

I find that my back arm has a tendency to shoot out as I advance into his fleche slightly to their off side. After they closeline themself a couple times, sometimes they get the message. If they don't, it's still fun.

[MyraTrue]

CSports-

this post is rather scarry in the respect that both these behaviors are completely unacceptable!

As to the first- I agree, this goes beyond simple corps-a-corps, which is legal in epee. This is excess brutality, and any director worth anything should be carding for this. Its not acceptable, and I'd let it be known were I to fence with person. Now I will admit (legal or not) I was taught to stop close quarters with corps-a-corps, and sometimes its a bit of a "geez, I'm sorry, are you ok?" because I feel like I jostled them too hard. But its never with intent to hurt, and often its from a fleche that they step into, or some such. Even I, who LIKES the use of corps-a-corps, am NOT happy with this idea.

As to the second, I have been told that something similar can be used to actually break someone's wrist. The details are fuzzy, but I do know of someone who tried something very like that and got bellbashed for their efforts... mainly because this fencer had NO intention of being crippled by that. Again, unacceptable, but less of something a director will catch. I'd almost be inclined to return brutality for brutality (ie- had a fencer once teach me to "bell bash" someone and make it look like an accident. Thats the first fencer I'd even think of trying to use it on).

I wish I could be more use to you. I am just rather surprised (Well, not surprised, but disapointed) that someone would lower themselves to antics like this.

Frustrating

[Catlady]

The easy answer is don't let them play their game. Counter the fleche, don't be where they expect you to be.
The other is up to the director. Intentional brutality can be hard to define. It's sort of like a quote I heard about obscenity once. The person in question said he couldn't define obscenity, but he knew it when he saw it. It's doubly so on something that could be accidental or is technically a valid move, but you could argue that it was executed with excessive force and with intent to hurt/stun/intimidate. In those cases I've heard one person call something excessively brutal and heard another person watching the same action in the same bout say that it was fine. So now that I've done more than the necessary CYA, I'd say from the way you described it if I were directing I would definitely card the first guy for brutality or jostling. Depending on how it looked, I'd probably card the second guy too.
At any rate in these cases you have to believe Karma'll get them sooner or later. At the very least they're not going to have a lot of friends.

[wflaschka]

If the fleche+jostling seems endemic with the fencer, and you have to fence him, you have a few options. Take your licks, and get it over with. This is the most common and advisable. Complain to the director early, so they start the warning process.

If you know the fleche+jostle is coming, and you don't feel like you deserve it, you can: (1) Fence normally and then brace for impact, and let them bounce off you. (2) Give a "teaching" hit, strong and direct to the sternum, even if it's a little late. (3) Duck into a squat and let them roll over you in a humiliating bundle of limbs. All of these allow the director to penalize the opponent, and leave your karma clean.

As for the wrist-whap... tell the director before the bout that you've been watching your opponent, and his first action will be a brutal blade across the forearm, and you want a brutality call. The director will be like, "Yeah, right." until it actually happens, in which case they're primed to give the call. If the opponent hears you say it, they'll either (1) not do it, or (2) object, in which case you can say, "I'm just sayin'."

If you don't want to receive the wrist-whap, take it on a 3 block and then pretend like it hurt a lot. Same result.

Typically, these fencers are eliminated early, so if you can "fence through" them you don't have to worry about the finals.

[epeefencer74]

I've faced people similar to the first fencer before. I have 2 standard counters. First is to parry with a prime and hit them in the hip or thigh. When the hit lands, twist the blade. Second, parry 5 or low quarte, use body weight to aid pushing opponent's blade towards the ground, turn right foot to adopt a stable horse stance and crouch. Opponent will trip over and land on head, and if luck is on your side break his blade as well. No fault on your part because you haven't moved an inch from your original position, therefore no card for you. Also if possible place head in line with his solar plexus such that when he runs into you he'd impale himself on your mask.

No experience with second type of fencer

[darius]

I played hockey throughout high school, so the notion of "protection" is well-ingrained. You have to really be clear that somebody is intentionally trying to hurt you, though....99.99% of the hard hits I've taken on the strip are unintentional, and there are no hard feelings.

Some people are just heavy handed, which is a big disadvantage in every weapon. Hand them their asses on a silver platter.

Those who do not...well, who knew that I raised my knee or left that elbow there when I parried prime? I'll offer profuse apologies, but then...if you hadn't provided all that momentum, it wouldn't have hurt so badly. And (in foil/sabre) it's a shame about that card for corps-a-corps, it always sucks to receive one of those when *you're* the one hurting.

darius

[sabreur]

First of all, the behaviors as you describe them are unacceptable--on par with a sabreur who absolutely slashes in an attempt to intimidate the opponent.

I don't fence epee, but I have heard epeeists say that if you really want to beat someone, you hit them as hard as you can on the inside of the elbow the first touch, and as hard as you can on the knee cap of the front leg the second touch. Who gets the touches is immaterial--you've just rendered your opponent hors de combat.

Best answer as wflaschka says is to alert the referee ahead of time. The problem with fighting fire with fire is 1) it hurts and 2) someone who engages in this kind of behavior will always be willing to escalate further than you are.

Cheers, MR

[swordsen]

Well my standard response to a mad flecher is jujst to hit them on their way in and let my victory mock them. If on the other han they really annoy me a hard straight shot to the mask once they are in mid flight tends to put a real damper on further assaults. Ideally I like to hit the very top inch or so of the mask so that their momentum causes their mask and head to snap back. I have never had to do this twice to someone.

An other options is flying off your feet when he hits you so he gets the card. Yet another is to draw him in and do a little hip check. It works like a judo throw and you can often cause them to go flying off across the room when they bounce off you.

the wrist chopper I have never had to face.

[MikeHarm]

The bumping fleche, I've seen that one before in epee.

Last time I fenced someone doing it was in practice. As soon as I saw my opponent start the bumping fleche, I did a backwards fleche, picking up his blade and hitting him as we both ran full speed towards my end line.

He threw his mask down and screamed at me me for a while that it was cheating because I was supposed to let him run by, the director would of called a halt (even though at this alleged halt point he was still trying to force his point onto me). I thought it was a nice counter to it.

[Fechter1]

Trust the referee to make the right call on both accounts. If you want to, you can even ham it up a little, but remember that overacting it can causse the opposite effect.

If the referee insists on ignoring the described actions, you might have to do something on your own. Mind you, I'm not advocating retaliation. Playing their game will only drag you down and expose you to disciplinary action (if they've been doing it, they probbly know how to hide it better than you). But there are actions you can perform to make it costly for them.

Against the flecher/jostler, for example, you can just put out a high straight line and leave it there. Do not punch, just let him run into it.
The slasher, well, that's another story. If you know he's going to do it, learn the tell (ie. raising his guard, winding up for a flick etc.), and cue off of that. My standard responses are either planting a strong stophit underneath just behind the guard, or a straight counter-fleche, aimed at the mask.

Above all, make sure that you stay within the rules. Do not try to injure him, or deliver a particularly hard hit. As I mentioned, that's a losing game.
And it's always best to complain to the ref.

[i'mnottelling]

>>Last time I fenced someone doing it was in practice. As soon as I saw my opponent start the bumping fleche, I did a backwards fleche, picking up his blade and hitting him as we both ran full speed towards my end line.

He threw his mask down and screamed at me me for a while that it was cheating because I was supposed to let him run by, the director would of called a halt (even though at this alleged halt point he was still trying to force his point onto me). I thought it was a nice counter to it.<<


Gee, I never knew that retreating was against the rules. After that episode I'd make sure to retreat and hit them with a counter everytime.

I would also tell him to learn to do a better fleche!

i'mnt

[Rolls]

If the Ref doesn't card him, politely ask the ref about it. The ref may not have seen it, but asking about it will have him watching for it in the future. Also, I find something like that tends to unsettle the opposing fencer because now they have to be careful or else they'll quickly start accumulating red cards.

If the ref insists on doing nothing (unlikely), then when ever you get hit hard be sure to take a moment to regroup. Sit down if it really hurts. Then, beat the guy. Winning is the best counter against unsavory tactics.

Rolls.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by veeco
If you're the referee, and this is jostling, card him. If it's only corps a corps, then nothing.
If you're a fencer, don't let him fleche, or catch him off guard by retreating on his fleche and hitting him afterwards. Or parry his attack and riposte. After he's lost a few points doing that he should stop.

in epee a "‘flèche resulting in a shock which
jostles the opponent’ which is considered as an act of intentional brutality at all three weapons and is punished as such...."

[veeco]

Yes, but "the fleche resulting in corps a corps, even if the action is systematic" is not considered a cardable offense in epee.

So in this particular case, unless it is the referee's interpretation as "jostling" no card should be given.

Of course, "knocking the wind out of someone" comes pretty much into MY definition of jostling. But mere contact between the fencers is not a cardable offense in epee.

[CSports]

One of the fencers, the hit occured on, still has sore ribs, and one of the others I would consider having a considerable amount of national experience.

[scarlet_woman156k]

Christ, who are these @ssholes? Tell them to come to Chicago (as I see you're posting from St. Louis) and we'll make sure to put them in their place.

[Wizardly]

First case:
If you've been watching, and you know it's going to happen, tell the referee ahead of time. As was said, they probably wont care until they see it happen. At the very least, you have clued them in to the fleche which systematically results in a shock that jostles the opponent, i.e. intentional brutality, a fouth group offense (according to the rules for epee). At the very least, this systematic poor form is dangerous and violent, a second group offense. Jostling is where you run into your opponent - you couldn't stop in time. Dangerous and violent is where you run through your opponent. Deliberate is where you run through THAT opponent. Lethal is where you run your opponent through (in which case you wont be doing much fencing in prison).

Second case:
Same thing. If you know it's coming, clue the referee. Again, excessive brutality = 2nd group offense, intentional brutality = 4th group offense.

Bear in mind, I'm not saying that you should try to get your opponent thrown out. However, it shouldn't be as dangerous as those two examples are making it.

What do you do? Talk to the coach, talk to the parents (if it is a minor), card the fencer vigorously, set up situations where teh dangerous act will backfire, e.g. duck or pass-under in response to the cross-check-fleche. DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT respond in kind. PIL works great for people that like to run into you. Of course, if you don't mind breaking rules, break a few nonviolent ones. Eat the unjustified appeal yellow card or claim an injury and delay the bout and eat the red card. I'd much rather see you do this than let the bout get out of hand with red and black cards for vindictiveness and intentional brutality.