November Swordmaster Series Cancelled

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by DanInMI
That is one of the dumbest things that I have ever heard.

Hold on, there might be more, I'm not done talking yet...

oiuyt, DanInMi, ya'll need to look at more than the results. I wrote: 'The "pfl" approach can have a business strategy that is not unreasonable, on the face of it.'

The approach is this: Pay for prizes by selling advertising for a sporting event, then market the event to stations who need to fill an hour here or there. The advertisers get an avenue of exposure to the world, the fencers get prize money, the organizers keep the difference. This approach has to sound familiar to people...

Generally, nobody registered any problem with this strategy, even though the thread was read a zillion times, and people of every imaginable professional background saw and understood the strategy. What did everybody chose to ***** about? The organizer.

So, nothing's wrong with the business strategy, on the face of it. Can another entrepreneur -- good at accounting, good at sales, good at negotiating -- make this work? Of course. It happens every day.

But I would certainly NOT use this "business strategy" as a model.

Of course we fencers wouldn't use it... but the world does. It's a very similar model to the one that puts every sporting event on every TV everywhere. But no-no-no, not us.

[oiuyt]

One note is that the organizers and the advertisers were the same entity. From what I've heard Warzone, Spincasters, Games Workshop, Immortal Images, Merlin's Magic Brew, Legionaire, and of course Knights of Siena are ALL companies owned/run by Mr. Blakeborough. The only listed sponsor that isn't is Santelli. I don't see that the model used here involved selling advertising. That's like comparing a vanity press's business model to what Doubleday does. Add to that the fact that the sponsor was also covering the entry fees for many of the competitors. What's the business model again?

Could a similar attempt be made that would be successful? Of course. There are several threads of suggestions as to what would make it work (or at least make it more likely to work). Heck, just getting rid of the idea of progressively growing prizes/entry fees would go a long way. Set all the entry fees at $25 for the first year, prize pool of $1000. I'd suggest also, at least at the beginning, having some of the prize pool go to people other than the gold medalist.
1st $500
2nd $200
3rd $100
3rd $100
5-8th $25
or
1st $400
2nd $200
3rd $100
3rd $100
5-8th $50
or
1st $500
random other entrant $500
Or PicoJeff's suggestion:
1st $500
2nd $250
3rd $125
4th $62.50
5th $31.25
6th $15.63
7th $7.81
8th $3.91

One additional note: once you've cancelled an event, a note on the website to that effect would be a Good Idea.

-B :)

[fencergal33]

Let's get our facts straight here....

Mr. Blakeborough is not an owner or partner in Immortal Images or Games Workshop. Immortal Images is a local Charlotte business, but Games Workshop is an international company out of England.

Before you slam people all of the time, you should really get your facts straight. I'm so tired of it.

[picojeff]

The prize structure was definitely one of the factors contributing to low entries. An ordinary guy might be willing to pay $25 to fence with a bunch of good fencers, but probably not $50, and certainly not more than that. A fencer who believes he has a 50/50 chance of making the top 8 and getting his money back doubled will enter if he can afford to lose the entry fee (or if he has a gambling problem).

A prize structure as was proposed for the now-canceled 2nd event: $1000,$300,$200,$100,$100,$100,$100,$100, with an entry fee of $50, I figure should get more or less 16 entries, with half the field being gamblers or people with money to burn. Unfortunately 16 entries won't pay the prizes.

So you need a prize structure that expands and contracts based on the number of entries, with a reasonable entry fee. It seems impossible to come up with any such structure that awards $1000 to the winner, something reasonable to 2nd and 3rd, and at least the entry fee to half the field, and has a reasonable entry fee (~$50). It requires too many suckers.

The Duel in the Desert draws in a few people based on the prize, but most of the people go for the quality of fencing and the gala experience. It has a lot more going for it than just a prize structure. The Swordmaster could have built up to something like that (even if they couldn't be in Las Vegas), if the prize structure had been self-supporting during the beginning growth phase.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by wflaschka
The approach is this: Pay for prizes by selling advertising for a sporting event, then market the event to stations who need to fill an hour here or there. The advertisers get an avenue of exposure to the world, the fencers get prize money, the organizers keep the difference. This approach has to sound familiar to people...

Well GARSH! I feel so stupid now.

Ummm... no that should not sound familiar to anyone. Is that how you think it works? Geeze.
The promoter does not sell advertising. The promoter pays for prizes, speculating that he can sell the show to cable stations that need something to fill in a time slot. (in this case the promoter also seems to have gotten a "sponser" to help provide prizes.)
The STATION sells advertising, that is how they make thier money.
The organizers make thier profit selling the show to the station.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by CarlKnoch
Wasn't there something said early on that the money to run the event was already accounted for, as well as the prize money? They had it all taken care of and all they wanted were bodies, no matter how many? Nothing about, "if there aren't enough fencers, we can't run it"...

I'll have to go digging through old posts now.....

Exactly, they maintained that the prize money would be forthcoming, regardless of the success of the event.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by picojeff

The Duel in the Desert draws in a few people based on the prize, but most of the people go for the quality of fencing and the gala experience. It has a lot more going for it than just a prize structure. The Swordmaster could have built up to something like that (even if they couldn't be in Las Vegas), if the prize structure had been self-supporting during the beginning growth phase.

You are exactly correct! Instead of spending the money on prizes they could have made it an "invitational" and spent the money to pay the expenses of several top epeeists to come to the event. I am sure that many A grade fencers would take part in an ELITE event for "the quality of fencing and the gala experience."

[wflaschka]

Originally posted by DanInMI
Well GARSH! I feel so stupid now. ... Ummm... no that should not sound familiar to anyone. Is that how you think it works? Geeze.

You can insult me all you want. I'm not entirely impressed with your understanding of the subject matter, so the insults are not hurtful, but merely unpleasant to read.

Anyway, you shouldn't feel too stupid about not understanding the approach that the PFL is taking. It's not difficult, but it does take a moment of thought. I can't respond to what you imagine the business plan was, because I don't have access to that information. But if we were to talk about real-world stuff, then the PFL's intentions were clear and understandable. It's available online on the PFL website under "advertising." It's also recognizably the same method for any and all broadcast sports events.

As for stations placing ads into television shows: you're making an error of scale. For a boutique program in a bad timeslot, the station can also work along paid-programming lines. Furthermore, many shows are shipped from the publishers with commercial spots already filled, advertisements having been negotiated further up the line. In fact, crafty local stations have been known to overwrite pre-existing commerical spots in a given show, to sell more inventory -- in effect, double billing on a national/local level.

So whether you're talking about advertising signage in the background of a shot (like all sports events), or actual advertisements pre-inserted in a show (like all shows), it' doesn't matter: 'The "pfl" approach can have a business strategy that is not unreasonable, on the face of it.' That's all I'm saying.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by wflaschka
You can insult me all you want. I'm not entirely impressed with your understanding of the subject matter, so the insults are not hurtful, but merely unpleasant to read.

Anyway, you shouldn't feel too stupid about not understanding the approach that the PFL is taking. It's not difficult, but it does take a moment of thought. I can't respond to what you imagine the business plan was, because I don't have access to that information. But if we were to talk about real-world stuff, then the PFL's intentions were clear and understandable. It's available online on the PFL website under "advertising." It's also recognizably the same method for any and all broadcast sports events.

As for stations placing ads into television shows: you're making an error of scale. For a boutique program in a bad timeslot, the station can also work along paid-programming lines. Furthermore, many shows are shipped from the publishers with commercial spots already filled, advertisements having been negotiated further up the line. In fact, crafty local stations have been known to overwrite pre-existing commerical spots in a given show, to sell more inventory -- in effect, double billing on a national/local level.

So whether you're talking about advertising signage in the background of a shot (like all sports events), or actual advertisements pre-inserted in a show (like all shows), it' doesn't matter: 'The "pfl" approach can have a business strategy that is not unreasonable, on the face of it.' That's all I'm saying.

Wow, talk about flaunting your stupidity.
1. Are you saying they were planning to BUY TV time?(as in Paid programming)
2. Publishers never ship a program with commercial spots already filled. (unless it is paid programming) Of course, networks sell part of the advertising spot, and the affiliate sells some local spots. That are placed over non revenue network promotion spots.
3. It is illegal for the local station to sell the same spot twice.
(Double billing)
4. Even if the promoter sells advertising on background signage that often becomes part of the negotiation with the station or network. They alone have the right to sell advertizing that appears on thier media. That is why you see logos blanked out in videos on MTV.

At least that's the way it was when I was in TV advertising sales.

[wflaschka]

1. Are you saying they were planning to BUY TV time?(as in Paid programming)

Well yeah -- this is a possibility for the business model. Read the threads, look at the website. It costs me nothing to type that over and over again. They were planning to go small market, even public access to start. We're talking getting paid $1000, or paying $1000... that level.

2. Publishers never ship a program with commercial spots already filled. (unless it is paid programming) Of course, networks sell part of the advertising spot, and the affiliate sells some local spots. That are placed over non revenue network promotion spots.

Actually, they do. Sorry!

3. It is illegal for the local station to sell the same spot twice. (Double billing)

No kidding. It's not kosher, yet it happens. I'm working with a company that tracks incidents of double-billing, for when local stations over-write preprogrammed advertisements. There's a lot of money to be made auditing performance of advertising campaigns.

4. Even if the promoter sells advertising on background signage that often becomes part of the negotiation with the station or network. They alone have the right to sell advertizing that appears on thier media.

Life is more interesting than that. Anything and everything is negotiable, which is why the system is so complicated. There's no bible of priviledges and rights, and every station can and does negotiate for itself. To make it simple, imagine it this way: a station can decide to pay $5000 for an episode without pre-existing commercials, or $2000 for an episode with pre-existing commercials, or aything inbetween. It's done, it's not new and surprising.

At least that's the way it was when I was in TV advertising sales.

I can go turn on the TV and look at versions of this business model all over the networks.

(Edited to remove nasty asides.)

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by DanInMI
Publishers never ship a program with commercial spots already filled. (unless it is paid programming)

The technical term is producers in the TV biz. Actually, some programs in syndication are often sold with a 50/50 (or other ratio) barter arrangement. The syndicator sells approximately half the spots, and leaves the other half for the local station to sell locally. That way both make money.

Or, if the cost of the show is underwritten by sponsorship, then most or all of the spots are made available to the airing station, as an inducement to carrying the program at a low up front cost. I'm not really clear, but I thought this was the original intent of the TV arm of the PFL.