[CFML] decline of fencing

[fatfencer]

hello everyone, hope you all ok.
Already typed this once but think i lost it.

Does anyone have any theories/facts as to why fencing has declined
so much in England and i assume the rest of western Europe. There
are alot of fencing clubs in England but not in comparison to other
sports i.e Karate / Judo. Fencing as a martial art is like hens
teeth, but upto not many generations ago fairly important? Any thing
to do with duels being outlawed?

Regards

Mark


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[Warren and Jackie Cabral]

In reply to your inquiry, the decline of fencing has little or nothing to do with the decline of dueling, but rather, in the very perception of how a sword or a sword-like weapon should be used. The idea to use swords in a manner "as if they were sharp" was once the proper way to think of all types of fencing, regardless of whether it was 16th Century swordplay or mid 20th Century swordplay. Fencing as a martial arts activity was defined with this end product in mind, and still should be. Although duelling went out of fashion (though never totally), fencing as a pastime/sport activity still must reflect this truth.

Things gradually changed with the acceptance of the electrical scoring system beginning in the 1930's. It took a lot of years for this to play out, and the changes were subtle, but over time the whole purpose of fencing mutated into a full sport activity whereby one had to "hit before being hit", or 'make the light go off before the other guy'. It was indeed a mutation rather than an evolution because the whole root purpose of fencing was changed: not just the sloppy techniques that are seen, nor the lack of any form present, nor the absence of real parries, or even the offensive moves that would get you killed in a real swordfight. No, what was eliminated was the validity of virtually everything to do with logical attack and defense with any swordlike implement. What we call Sport Fencing (SF) today, is far, far different than the system of fencing that many of us grew with even into the 1960's. We now cannot simply call fencing what it was, but now we need to differentiate
between the SF branch and what must now be called Classical Fencing (CF); or that branch which still retains the goal of "what if they were sharp?" as its' guiding principle, regardless of what weapon is being used. While much of this is predicated toward use of the foil, epee, or sabre, the usage of historical weapons of various periods is considered in the mix as well.

The electrical scoring system by itself did not instantly change the art, but because touches could be differentiated from each other in fractions of a second, ideas related to athleticism over valid technique crept in, rules were changed and interpreted, then interpreted again and again; there were all sorts of issues to do with power, prestige, and, of course, money (just as there are in other venues....fencing is not unique in this), and finally over a period of some forty years of more,sport fencing has become almost unrecognizable from the art it once was. Like anything else, once one has been gradually led down the garden path, the end result can be far different from what one had anticipated in the beginning. Anyway, that is an opinionated short version of what has happened, and I know that I am far from alone in that opinion...from what I have observed over the past forty years, I do not pretend to be unbiased! For more information on developments in the modern game, you
might want to read Maitre Adam Crown's book "Classical Fencing- Art of Incurable Romantics", or Maitre Nick Evangelista's book "The Art and Science of Fencing". Other worthwhile books on the subject include "Science of Fencing" and "History of Fencing" , both by Maestro William Gaugler. "By the Sword" by Richard Cohen will also provide some neat insights into fencing's development. I'm sure that others in the forum will also be happy to contribute their insights as well. Hope that this has been of some value to you.

Regards,
Warren Cabral <m4rkm3w@ntlworld.com> wrote:
hello everyone, hope you all ok.
Already typed this once but think i lost it.

Does anyone have any theories/facts as to why fencing has declined
so much in England and i assume the rest of western Europe. There
are alot of fencing clubs in England but not in comparison to other
sports i.e Karate / Judo. Fencing as a martial art is like hens
teeth, but upto not many generations ago fairly important? Any thing
to do with duels being outlawed?

Regards

Mark


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[Brian D. Schenck]

--- Warren and Jackie Cabral <sword_teacher@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In reply to your inquiry, the decline of fencing has little or nothing to do
> with the decline of dueling, but rather, in the very perception of how a
> sword or a sword-like weapon should be used. The idea to use swords in a
> manner "as if they were sharp" was once the proper way to think of all types
> of fencing, regardless of whether it was 16th Century swordplay or mid 20th
> Century swordplay. Fencing as a martial arts activity was defined with this
> end product in mind, and still should be. Although duelling went out of
> fashion (though never totally), fencing as a pastime/sport activity still
> must reflect this truth.
>
One could, by the same token, say that painting styles such as Cubism or
Impressionism represent a decline in art in comparison to Rennaisance or
Romanticism. It certainly has little to do with what painting used to do
(i.e., represent real objects and to capture them for all time), and is a huge
variant from what used to be painted. But, I think most would admit, that this
kind of comparison is not appropriate, as one is applying the values of one to
the other, without considering the values of the second.

I know this is a favorite rant of many on this mailing list -- but really, does
Sport Fencing NEED to be referred to as a "mutation" or the "decline of
fencing", or anything else in negative or derogatory terms? I'm certain that
no one here would appreciate the use of such terms in reference to Classical
Fencing, and rightly so -- it would be offensive. Personally, I believe no
discussion is served well by referring to either style in a derogative or
demeaning way -- and as such, does NOT belong on any mailing list.

That being said, to return to the original question: I was unaware that
fencing, classical or otherwise, had declined in Europe. In the sense that the
number of practioners had decreased, or that somehow the practice was in
general decline. I was under the impression that it still maintained a large
amount of popularity and support. So, is it true that fencing has diminished
in Europe? Or merely that the popularity of other "martial" practices has
simply increased?


-Brian

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[LutzBrux]

Sports Fencing is certainly not a decline of fencing as such. It is something different entirely from Fencing in the original sense of the word.

Unluckily, due the their huge numbers, the sports fencers dominate public opinion about what fencing is without considering that their system lacks one thing, namely fear. The fear of being wounded or killed, which is at the base of all swordmanship (as opposed to sportsmanship).
This makes Sports Fencing a sport, attractive, modern, sexy, fun, but cut from its roots. It is as if a boxer only would do sparring and never do a fight. He will box differently.

I trained guys to fight with sharp blades, a safe but very educative thing to do. I very often pointed out to soembody that their wrist technique was faulty, in vain. That changed in many cases drastically, when they got the other sides blade over their head and got hit.

You just cannot compare the two, sports and "real" fencing.