Newbie: Salle v. Tournament

[mhoneth]

I am only a couple of months into my training, and participated in a beginners' tournament last night. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience! Now I have a few questions I am hoping you can help me with.

The training drills are very clear and precise. I have reached a point of awareness where I can understand how particular parries are effective against specific attacks, and how all this is intertwined into a phrase.

The challenge I had at the tournament was that nobody actually attacks in clear, well-defined lines (me included). Under the 'pressure' of a tournament for beginners, the lessons just don't come fast enough to react appropriately. This tends to happen with both opponents, making them look a little like flailing crows.

My question is: what can beginners do to improve their results in a tournament against other beginners (as opposed to the standard lifelong improvement where one's training becomes almost instinctive)? Is there a particular area of focus that is usually more productive than others?

Perhaps there is no clear answer to this, but your suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[westcoastsabre]

Well, you should talk to your coach about this, but generally speaking you should not train for a beginner's tournament. In the long term, novice tournaments mean nothing, and they will teach you bad habits. You should just try to look forward into more advanced fencing and if you want to compete in a novice tournament, go for it. but don't make it the focus of your training.

[westcoastsabre]

Well, you should talk to your coach about this, but generally speaking you should not train for a beginner's tournament. In the long term, novice tournaments mean nothing, and they will teach you bad habits. You should just try to look forward into more advanced fencing and if you want to compete in a novice tournament, go for it. but don't make it the focus of your training.

[LittleLector]

Congrats on doing you first tournament, but I would make it your last novice tournament. I feel the best way to learn fencing is to get lessons from a good coach, and then take it to the tournaments and use them as a learning experience. Getting your butt kicked is not a bad thing as long as you learn something from it i.e. was I making bad preparations or am I not in shape etc. Keep it up, just stay away from the novice tournaments.

[MyraTrue]

Mhoneth,

glad you enjoyed the tournament. It sounds like you have discovered every beginner (and advanced fencer's) bane! Its what my club called "drunken monkey fencing". Its hard as a "more experienced fencer" (I use that term loosely with me) to fence a beginner because the advanced fencer doesn't know what the heck the beginner's doing. Trouble is, as a beginner, *I* had no clue what I was doing either. And it really does come down to a lot of flailing.

And you've also noticed that things work great in practice, and fall to pieces on the strip. I know I've been fencing almost two years now, and it still happens to me. My lunge looks very different, we'll just say.

So what can you do to get better? Well, I agree with the idea of getting coaching. It helps, greatly. But really, time, and attention to being a good clean fencer helps. Remember that speed and form aren't always linked, and sometimes, going too fast actually hurts you. Start slow, go to a club bout intending to work on one thing, and don't worry about getting the point as much.

And if you want to tournament and learn from it, my advice (while it may sound harsh) is to avoid novice tournaments. You'll learn the most from fencing with more experienced fencers. They'll know how to stop weaknesses and use them against you- which means you learn what you have that works, and what NEEDS work.

But besides all that, have fun! This is a great sport, and we were all beginners. Some of us may not admit we ever went through the flailing awkward stage, but its too true. Good luck!

Myra the verbose

[mhoneth]

Thank you for your advice. By the sound of it, I should simply keep at it until things click (no shortcuts.

I do belong to a club, and receive group coaching until I am good enough for the maitre to even consider looking at me twice.

Our instructors, however, recommend participating in all tournaments, whether novice or not, simply to gain experience in fencing as many different people at all levels as possible.

The rationale made sense to me.

[Peach]

I agree with your coaches. Participation in tournaments is an important part of training, and it doesn't really matter whether they're novice tournaments or open ones. From my perspective, watching Division III NAC fencing is as wince-worthy as a novice tournament. and it's important to learn how to deal with novices sometimes. As long as you have good coaches who help you understand that good form and proper fencing are the best way to beat bad fencing in the long run--even if you only beat it by "graduating" into an elite category while they never improve and keep beating people at local tournaments.

[DangerMouse]

One thing I wish someone would have told me way back when I was fencing novice tournaments is: Keep it Simple! As you said, beginners don't attack in well defined lines. They also don't defend in well defined parries. In short, they are unpredictable. Use distance and timing with simple parry ripostes. If you try to string together a complex action based on your oppenent reacting the way a more experience fencer (such as your coach during lessons) would react, you won't hit very often because your opponent won't react the way you expect.

Good luck with your next tourney!

[Inquartata]

The two pieces of advice I have to offer are:

1) Relax and try, try not to want to win. Almost impossible, I know. But if you can pull it off it really helps. If you can just concentrate on having fun, fencing respectably and working on a few things, you will calm down and probably do better. I know that the few times I have been able to implement this I have had truly remarkable results...and I've seen the same in others.

2) Try to emulate the stance and demeanor of a more advanced fencer whom you admire, preferably one whose style looks consonant with your own physical capacities and psychological attitudes. The one thing which has settled me down the most is trying to "channel" a fencer who is more tranquil-looking and confident on the strip....

[mhoneth]

Now that I have an additional 2 weeks of experience, I would like to raise an "insight" I have achieved, and see if it makes sense to y'all.

All club training, as well as books on fencing, cover the technique of fencing - things like footwork, fingerplay, attacks, parries and ripostes - to a greater or lesser extent. These are critical to successful fencing because they form the rules of the sport/game, and the better you are at technique, the better you'll be on the piste.

BUT

No matter how much technique you have under your belt, you will still be hit by others.

To be superior requires an understanding of the art of fencing, and this is not so easily taught, and I don't know of any books that go into this at all. The reason a beginner scores the odd hit against an instructor, is not that her technique is better, but that she did something an experienced fencer would not normally do, and she therefore surprised her opponent. It seems to me that a superior fencer should be able to mimic just such a beginner's move when the opportunity presents itself. This is art. I have also found that maitres will slowly share tips and tricks with their pupils over the years, and it is this knowledge (on top of technique) that lets you truly hit and not be hit.

Technique alone only alows you to hit sometimes and not be hit sometimes.

Comments?

[Feanor]

I think the novice tournaments do offer one very very important and overlooked benefit...

They prepare you for the mindset of what it is like to compete in a "tournament-like" atmosphere.

I'm assuming that there is a pre-sign in, and all the atmosphere that is identified with a competition format; sounds, sights, activity etc...

I remember reading a message thread here a while back where the poster was talking about being so nervous at their first tournament that they couldn;t sign the sign up sheet because their hand was shaking so much...

Think of how much better that kind of situation would be if you could first expend and dispell much of that anxiety by first competing with people you are aquainted with in an environment that you feel more comfortable in (your Salle)

Of course the novice bouts will teach you little since you are up against other novices, but if you get into the swing of at least what a competition will be similar too, the attendant reduction in first day jitters may have you fencing on a better level and hence actually learning more even if you still get your butt kicked in the sanctioned event...

When I first started fencing, I was very nervous stepping out into the training area (I hugged the wall like the floor was a pit of acid) Now, only a few months later I stroll in like I own the place! *laughing*

There can be no underestimating the power of being able to find a place in your mind where you can relax... Novice Salle competitions go a long way to achieving that state of mind in preparation for travelling to sanctioned events in unfamiliar surroundings...

Just my thoughts...