fencing tips for a karateka?

[Ipon]

Hi All,

New-be here... Planning on starting fencing in a week; Foil.

I was wondering, as a new-comer to the sport, does anyone had advice on which aspect of my skills training I should concentrate on; offensive or deffensive.

As it pertains to translating my karate skills, (foot speed/stance), to fencing, are there any advantages to adopting a deeper set fencing stance over a higher one or will this be descided by the weapon I choose?

Basically, If I used to a higher stance, 70/30 weight distribution will I have to change?

Thanks

[bjacobs]

Better you just forget about Karate. Any speed, coordination, timing, sense of distance etc. you've developed will of course be helpful, but fencing simply isn't karate. Go to a class, get some lessons, and your coach will show you correct footwork.

[Wizardly]

Fencing stance is a lot more in-profile than your typical fighting stance. You're going to have to learn to get your back foot behind you. Also, your stance is almost definitely going to change from 70/30; most agree that closer to 50/50 is much better.

As a newcomer, I wouldn't be as concerned with the tactical skill set as much as the mechanical skill set. Your tactical sense will probably translate the most. However, you have to train your body for moves that are optimized for this sport and not open-handed combat.

I'd also advise against trying to plug in the mechanics of a martial art into your fencing. I've helped teach someone who had experience with tae kwon do, and because she was unable to not punch from the hip as she was taught and unable to shake her customary fighting stance, her extension was wrong for a LONG time, and her en guard stance (and consequently, her ability to move effectively) was wrong for even longer.

To use an analogy - riding a motorcycle will not help you fly a plane. Operating a vehicle gives you some basic concepts, but motorcycles and airplanes are very different. The same holds true between fencing and karate. This isn't to say that karate wont serve you - as I said, you've already developed a tactical sense, so you're way ahead of the game. Also, you've been doing something that involves conrolling your body movements. You'll probably pick up the movements much quicker than the average couch potato.

[40Saberthieves]

Karate translates quite well to fencing.

For your fencing stance- a backstance is quite close to fencing stance. Just bend your front knee a little bit more and you have a fencing stance.


The main problem in translation is blocking. Blocks dont translate to parries well, its must more natural for me to try to beat the enemy blade.

This is of course, for sabre.

[Ipon]

I agree that the skill that would most likely result in any advantages will be my tactical sense. The next I'm guessing would be timing.

Still even though I'm anxiously awaiting for my course to begin, in a tiny sense, I'm dreading the idea that my fluidity will be held back by the new footwork. Specifically, shifting my center of gravity to the 50/50 postion, and learning how to generating the foward explosive movement.

I've had some experience in crossing-over from one martial art to the other. I've done some Judo, and Kendo.
The most difficult, transition wise, was Kendo; Though In retrospect I tried to run before having learnt how to crawl. Hopefully I'll not make the same mistakes.

BTW...I know I'm getting ahead of it all, considering I havn't participated in one class yet. But thanks for the advice.

[Ipon]

RogueNine, by beat you mean knocking aside or rather gettin inside before your opponent has hide time to connect?

Also is the exchange of strikes and blocks in sabre better suited for my background?

[Wizardly]

No, beat is a type of blade contact. There are three general types of parries: engagements, beats, and blocks. Engagements force the blade out of the way, beats smack the blade out of teh way, and blocks catch a blade that is coming in.

Saber fencing tends to use blocking parries due to the nature of a saber attack being a cut (attack with the edge of the blade). Foilists tend to parry with a beat. However, all three weapons will have a use for all three types of parries at some point.

[40Saberthieves]

Thats what I ment, sorry, I forgot you were new.

You will indeed lose forward explosive power, but you dont really want that in fencing anyway.

Practice changing direction quickly in backstance. It will help alot.

Just out of curiosity, are you part of the ISKF?

[40Saberthieves]

Actually, the fencing stance is more like a sochin stance with no width

[Ipon]

No problem about the terminology, I have to learn it sometime anyway.

No I havn't studied Shotokan. The style I practice resembles more Gojo-ryu. In essence, and if I'm not mistaken, a shotokanist will root themselves and intercept the strike, while I'll try to redirect and strike.

But I see what you mean in sochin. It's quicker to move from a offensive to defensive posture. I guess the foward/backward movement is essentially a shuffle like step?

Do you practice Karate?

[DCB]

Ipon: I have over 20 years' experience studying and teaching Shotokan karate, and I just started to study fencing. I believe that one of the great benefits of karate is mastery of your physical body and, as such, karate is an excellent foundation for any physical activity. Having said that, in my limited fencing experience I haven't seen much direct carry over in physical skills between the two activities. In fact, in foil you're supposed to extend your arm before starting an attack, which of course is just the opposite of the body dynamics that you learn in karate (i.e., torque from the hip and delay the hand). This requires me to consciously think about extending my arm instead of just attacking physically. Another example is the basic stance -- it's somewhat like a back stance (kokutsu-dachi), but with the weight 50/50. I have to force myself to keep my weight even because I tend to instinctively go to 70/30 and raise my heel. My advice is to "shut up and religiously practice whatever your coach tells you to do." (sound familiar?) That way you'll develop fencing skills, which is what you're there to do.

I recently started bouting (freestyle sparring), and here I think that my karate experience gives me an advantage over other beginning fencers. First, I'm accustomed to physical attacks/combat, so I'm not as anxious on the strip (I'm still anxious, but it's the anxiety of being humiliated by a 12 year girl, not the fear of physical combat!). Second, I can "see" much of what my opponent is trying to do, and I can always see when someone is telegraphing an attack. Unfortunately, my fencing skills are not evolved enough for me to fully take advantage of my insights, but hopefully that will come in time.

With regard to weapons, again my advice is to quietly do whatever your coach tells you to do. My understanding is that most beginners learn foil, because it teaches you right-of-way, point control, and basic fencing skills, at least two of which you'll need regardless of which weapon you pursue. I'm studying foil, and enjoying it very much.

My bottom line: follow your coach's directions, practice diligently, and be an "empty cup," and you'll enjoy your fencing experience. I know that I'm enjoying mine. Good luck!

[40Saberthieves]

Ive been doing shotokan karate for 11 years.

Id just like to warn you that for about a month, assuming you keep up practice, your karate will suffer as you mix fencing and karate. Once you sort it out, they help each other
Again, blocking is the main problem, at least in sabre.


DCB- Why do you raise your heel in backstance? I am taught to keep your foot on the ground, for better traction.

[40Saberthieves]

Movement- its not really a shuffle like step. Your coach will teach it to you.

[Ipon]

DCB. Domo-arrigato sensei!

But seriously thanks for the insight. However don't mistaken my zeal for brashness. I'm just very analytical by nature and mean no disrespect to the learning process.

[jeff]

All good advice, to which I'll add the following: Try to keep your shoulders relaxed. Some karateka are very stiff in the shoulders and upper arms when fencing, which makes their motions slower and stiffer. There's an Italian saying for fencing "mano di ferro, brasso di goma" (hand of iron, arm of rubber) indicating firm control of the weapon, and a supple, flexible arm.

The points about hand before foot are also important. In fencing you don't need a stable base from which to make a hard strike, but you do need to advance the point towards the opponent before advancing your vitals towards his/her point. Different mechanics are needed, and it can be difficult to unlearn the habits from the unarmed arts.

Explosive speed will come, especially from the mechanics of the lunge, which doesn't have a direct analogy in karate, I think. Your coach will show you how to develop that.

Good luck, and enjoy learning a new martial art. Techniques can be learned, and your tactical experience will be very helpful.

Jeff (who has also done Kung Fu, Tai Ch'i and Hapkido)

[Mike Schneider]

I can feel for you, coming into fencing after a different martial art. I started fencing 7 weeks ago, and that's with roughly 6 years experience with Shinkendo (a Japanese martial art). Our SK stances are somewhat forward, and the weapons are much heavier than fencing weapons, and also two handed. The footwork wasn't too hard of an adjustment, but I'm just now starting to reacquire decent blade control. Still, if you've already done a lot of sparring, you'll find it easy to continue to control the distance between you and your opponent.

-Mike

[Ipon]

I have 3 years worth of form practice with the bokken, I've also gotten quite comfortable with the sai's. (Obviously no sparring)

Also, I totaly get that the mechanics of fencing are different from using a sai or a bokken. However, since I've been able to pick up both weapons and intergrate them into me skills repertoire fairly quickly, I'd like to believe that I havn't a steep learning curve to overcome.

I know "apples and oranges", still I think I've got an intuitive sense at reading my opponents body language. I don't know how much is intuition and how much is practice, But I should be able to at least identify the potential targets, before getting Shishkabobed.

BTW, I want to THANK you all, for the great advice. I'm glad I found this site/forum.

[Ky-Fi]

I've been fencing for about 2 years, and I've been doing traditional Chinese martial arts for over 6. In my opinion it's extremely important to remember that the goals of various martial arts are often very different, and trying to mix training methods and techniques that have come about from many years (sometimes centuries) of an art's evolution for THAT art's purpose, will at best be only marginally useful, and at worst counter-productive when you try to apply them to ANOTHER art with a fundamentally different goal.

I won't speak about Karate since I don't have much experience in it, but I can give you an example from my arts. I've trained quite a bit of Taiji saber, and one of the moves we practice is a sweeping cut to the chest and belly, bringing the blade from low to high, diagonally from your opponent's right hip to his left shoulder. Because this is a traditional martial art, we're taught the things we would need to do to actually kill somebody with this technique. All power is generated from the firmly-rooted feet, and and the left hand supports the back of the blade for further power. Also the blade is drawn with pressure across the target area to slice open the opponent as deeply as possible.

But with sport fencing, you don't need to do most of these things---the goal is not to learn to kill your opponent with European weapons. Your goal is to get the touch on your opponent within the confines of the rules and traditions of the sport. Whether or not your sport fencing technique would be lethal in a real fight is largely irrelevant, because that's not what the sport is about, or requires.

Also, sport fencing has been evolving for generations----the likelihood that some training method or technique that you learned in a different art is going to actually be MORE useful than the training methods and techniques developed by generations of fencers is incredibly tiny, IMO.

I do think that certain things that you have developed from Karate, such as conditioning, coordination, sense of timing, calmness, etc., can certainly help with fencing. But, kind of like DCB said, if at any time you find yourself thinking "we do it this way in Karate" instead of doing exactly what your fencing coach tells you, then I think it's going to be detrimental to you development as a fencer. I actually think that's the big secret of the martial arts---humility isn't just some lofty, noble goal of personality development, but rather it's a fundamentally practical and useful approach which will make YOU better faster.

[pkt]

I've been fencing since 1965. Though I haven't tried any of the other martial arts, I know enough of them via others' experience. (Yes, that's me with the sabre in the avatar.)

Here're my 2-cents' worth:

1. Arguably, the most difficult thing to learn in fencing is to relax: relax the shoulders, the arms and whatever body parts you're not using at that moment. Relaxed muscles will give you the explosive speed you need, the actions you need to do in fencing.

2. In fencing - a sport in the main, the emphasis is on "TOUCH", not CUTTING the opp into halves, hence arguably the 2nd most diffcult thing to learn in fencing is th do every BLADE action with the FINGERS first, then the wrist and the arm and footwork only to deliver the touch. As a result, methinks fencing is more in the 'soft' rather than the 'strong' school of martial arts.

3. NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! Point first, then hand, and lastly footwork. That's the sequence of action. It'd be faster to think POINT FIRST esp. with the conventional (RoW) weapons: foil and sabre. Once you got the point [foil]/blade [sabre] moving, the ref will interpret that as the attack and give you the right of way [RoW].

4. There are certain things we do in fencing that do not work or disallowed simply because they do not work in the other killing-based sword disciplines. e.g. feints and disengagements.

The rest have the same effects:
a. The blade actions: beats, envelopments [a kind of taking the blade], parries [blocks - of course as you might have seen in various movies, the latest being "Kill Bill", if the steel in your opp's blade is far superior to yours you'll lose your blade literally.]
b. The footwork - except the stance, the lunge, the fleche.
c. The strategy: the counter-attacks/stop hits are similar, the 2nd intention 'attacks', etc.
Etc.

Hope this help,

PK

[SJB]

Ipon, out of curiousity what club in Montreal are you joining?

If you haven't picked one yet I can make some suggestions.