Form vs Speed

[Feanor]

Greetings All,

With the short amount of fencing under my belt, my current performance has developed into a situation which has been typical for many sports I've pursued.

That is, the "poise, form and execution" is there, but the explosive speed, power and reaction time are lagging behind.

Instructors have commented that my form and footwork is excellent and that I'm showing a particular aptitude at putting together attack and defense elements seamlessly and naturally, in addition my form deteriorates very little even in the face of very aggressive attack, but appropriate responses come just a split second too late.

I find myself fencing younger students with LIGHTNING reflexes, specifically, I find the young ladies almost appear to be able to react to my actions a millisecond after I initiate them!

The more experienced fencers in the Salle like fencing me not because my reactions and my phrasing are "predictable form" but because they say they are appropriate and controlled. One excellent fencer even commented that he liked fencing with me because it was almost like fencing with a veteran competitor, but at a reduced speed. He did mention right after that he meant that as a compliment, and that it forced him to excercise good form and control. All in all, a better alternative for him than fencing someone else with what he said was the "poke poke whip poke whip" mentality...

My great concern is that speed and reaction time are intrinsic to the person, but form can be learned. That would mean that if I cannot increase my reaction time, I'll be at a permanent disadvantage compared to those with lightning reflexes that may just need more work on form.

I've been told by the instructor and the other experienced fencers that the gap between reaction time and control is far smaller than most people think... and someone who can execute a parry with just enough motion to do the job, is on par with someone who does the same parry much quicker but describing a much larger motion.

One thing that they mentioned that was a bit confusing to me was when they say "Its not as much about speed as it is about timing"

My instructor says that it is impossible to know if it is better to start with someone with raw reaction time, as opposed to someone with perfect form and control, its really specific to the individual and might be nothing more than two paths to the same optimal goal. I'm hoping this is true...

One thing that does seem to work consistently though is trying to bolster what I lack in speed with "being unpredictable"

Not certain if it is considered a "cheap trick" but I found that on many ocassions, opponents take their "alert status" cues from you... That is I will make an attack feint to which they will react, with more speed I could press on, disengage and follow thru, but since I don;t seem to be quick enough, my opponents are almost always able to counter. I will then retreat, lower my tip and raise up a bit in my stance almost like I am taking a breather... The instant they react in the same way, a "mutual rest" kind of reaction I'll drop back down and drive the lunge as quickly as I can. Its been successful much more than I would have predicted.

A few people I fence with frequently actually look like they become more "alert" when I am really taking a breather

So after all that rambling... I'm hoping that reaction time is something that can be trained, and that I can field both form and timing sometime in the far flung future...

Have a good one!

[Peach]

Please please please do not worry about speed. It will come. Good form and training will defeat bad form and haste.

I am not particularly fast myself, but I have worked very hard over the past few years on doing only that which is necessary. The fewer unnecessary things you do (leaning, galloping, flailing, parrying wide, etc.) the faster your effective speed will be. Likewise, the more you train with correct form, the more immediately you will be able to act.

Finally, fast is not necessarily better.

Last night, I was fencing a very experienced and savvy teammate, a young man who earned his B this past year. We know each other well and play complicated tactical games against one another. One of our less experienced teammates was refereeing, and at one point we puzzled him because over and over again, I would laugh and say after the point, "It almost worked." After the bout, my opponent explained to the referee that he was making actions designed to make me rush, but instead, I made my actions smaller, while going no faster, and therefore did not allow him to control me.

Another opponent yesterday evening makes very fast accelerations and finishes leaning way forward, while his parries are often executed with a backwards lean. It didn't take me long, though I got hit a few times, to figure out what his real distance was and make him fall short, or take the extra step and hit him as he was trying to parry, and in both types of situation he was stuck because of his loss of balance.

[Wizardly]

Don't worry too much messing with your opponent's mind. It's not like anyone calls baseball's change-up a cheap trick. In the tempo domain, the idea is to catch you opponent not reacting.

If people can learn to speed read, learn to play an instrument quickly, or learn to quick-draw, you too can learn to improve your fencing reaction time. There is innate talent, but it is plastic, just like everything else (except for genetics). You simply have to practice being quick! Well, not so simple. Physically, this is power (as opposed to strength or endurance). I'm not sure what you can do, if anything, for reflexes, if they can be isolated, or their dependence on muscle conditioning. You also have to train your mind. Decision drills, reaction drills, drilling quickness in general. Hell, play "Minesweeper" for time! See if you can't beat the beginner level in 6 seconds. Work on your mental focus. Being too zeroed in can give you tunnel vision that blinds you from reaction cues. You might have to "get out of your mind" and avoid being too introspective on the strip. If it helps, learn to scream when you lunge (as reaction cues go, personally, the scream comes out means I'm not worried about anything else but the fencing at hand - hence I don't care that I'm screaming).

So fear not. Your technique may be "textbook;" you're proficient in the mechanical domain. You probably have a good sense in the tactical domain. Hell, you even picked up a few things in the mental and spatial domains. You learned in those, you can learn in the tempo domain.

[Inquartata]

Peach is right, speed will come in time. Better that you get correct actions becoming faster than fast actions getting sloppier, which is a phenomenon I know something about! ( Not that I was ever greased lightning, but anyway. )

If you're having trouble reacting to opponents' actions, give yourself a hair more distance. And look into pliometrics to augment explosive power. But above all, remember that Rome wasn't built in a day...and most of us have been right where you are.

[Feanor]

Thank you for the replies all! Lots of great and very encouraging advice!

I have to say they made me feel alot better Its just frustrating because it feels constantly like my feet are glued to the floor or that a boat anchor is chained to my wrist! *laughing*

My mind says "Arm, move!" and it just sits there frozen...

Lately, I've been working hard to overcome the situation where I start to actually become almost "philosophical" while fencing, my mind wandering to a thousand different thoughts that happen to be fencing related, but have only a passing connection to the fact that I just got touched...

SO the frustration comes from needing to get to a point where I do SOMETHING, ANYTHING, rather than vaporlock for that critical moment...

But from all the great responses I think patience is the road for now, and staying on form... In a very big way, fencing with people much better than me is great for many reasons, it makes me impatient and want to learn more faster, it makes me overcome that sense of panic and anxiety springing from someone driving forward on the attack, and most of all, it makes me VERY humble in knowing that know matter how smug I can be about having decent form, I have a long long LONG way to go

Thanks again!

[vegan]

feanor,
So . . . . peach is right (as usual- ps. peach, babe your not slow either!!!), the speed will come in time- however there are some tactics one can use to overcome the lack of speed:
1. distance, the idea being that this can keep you from getting hit, even if you don't always take adavantage of the scoring oportunities right away! stay farther away then you need to, and wait for the opponent to make a mistake.
2. Accelerate- this is something that works great, if you can make a change in speed at the last (read critical) moment, it will often earn you a touch. Slow start, finish fast; slow parry, faster repost; and ideas in this vain.
3. don't forget that footwork has to move you- and sacrifice form for mobility- the speed will come, but only if practice (when you do your footwork, do it with lots of different speeds, and accelartions)

Good Luck
B.

[MikeHarm]

My advice is if they're reacting to the action you're trying to do too fast for it to be successful, use the action as a feint and counter their counter to it.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

I made the wrong choice. I chose speed over form. I thought I was doing well and I survived on athleticism alone, but I eventuall hit a brick wall. This summer I started all over again, staying low, smaller steps etc. If I had done it right in the first place I would be miles ahead of where I am now. So keep the form cuz the speed will come.

[MyraTrue]

Feanor,

I'm not sure anyone actually addressed the "speed versus timing" question. So, first, I ALSO agree with Peach. The real idea about speed versus timing is that you don't have to be really fast if you do it at the right time.

I once fenced team epee with a girl who is, despite that I've had exposure to A rated fencers, STILL faster. This girl was freaky fast! But she moved too fast, and she'd get all tied up because her timing wasn't there. Its like disengaging before a parry... "oops".

In many respects, I wish I were more like you. I'm not an athletic person at all, and I went for speed too soon! My form is pretty good when I'm thinking about it, even my lunge looks good. But then I get on the strip, and it all falls apart. You are FAR BETTER OFF to have good form and add the needed speed than to have speed and crappy form.

It sounds like you are well on the way to becoming an excellent fencer!