Is a pistol grip foil anything like an italian?

[angel]

I've been thinking about something recently and I just want to hear other people's opinions on this.
I've been watching most of the people in my class use a pistol grip foil and I've seen photos of a correct handling of an Italian foil. I think that the two grips are almost identical in the way that they're handled.

My theory here is this. That the pistol grip foil provides as much power without sacrificing blade movement or speed. Almost as good or even better than an Italian foil.
Wasn't it designed by one of the Angelo's?

I think it's important because I am looking for a grip that provided good stopping parrying power of a blade without sacrificing the lag time between ripostes.

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Angelo16

[This message has been edited by angel (edited 01-29-2001).]

[Gav]

Thought I would chuck this in before all "forget about italian grips" started. Form your own opinions.

It can be argued that Italian grips are in actual fact the forerunners of pistol (orthopaedic) grips. As you've noticed they do have a similair style.

There is actually nothing wrong with using the Italian grip. The trick is too remember that the style will still be slightly different. There is another thread on this board somwhere have a look at that. One of the posts actually has a picture of an Italian grip on it.

I am sure one of the historical buffs will post a better description of the style and use of this type of grip.

THe main weakness (as far as I can see) i that no-one uses it so you'll never get spare parts.

[attila]

Give it up because they suck! They are NOTHING like pistol grips. Can't angulate for **** , can't hyper-extend at all. And if they were any good at all you would see at least one good fencer in the points standing using one. Don't waste your time looking for such a thing..........

Attila

ps. I sound kinda grouchy, huh? Sorry . I "m really sore from the week-end tourney and My ACL is giving me such trouble. But they really do suck.

[Clean Touch]

*ahem* If I may add my 2¢ to the discussion...

The Italian grip is VERY different from the orthopedic "pistol" grips of recent development, both mechanically and in operation.

The Italian grip is held in place by a wrist strap such that the pommel cannot separate from the wrist. This adds a lot of power to circular parries, blade actions, etc by relieving the fingers and hand of much of the clenching action. With the pistol grip the pommel has the freedom to separate from the wrist which opens up several avenues of blade action not possible with the Italian grip and the accompanying wrist strap.

Because the pistol grip's pommel can separate from the wrist the fencer can turn the point to a sharper angle that with an Italian. This move is particularly useful during in fighting when the close distances preclude a straight reposte or replacement, hence the pistol grip's overwhelming popularity over the Italian.

This flexibility in the position of the orthopedic grip's pommel also allows for a dastardly move referred to by atilla as "hyper-extending". During a bout an extra half-inch or so can be coaxed out of the weapon by extending the fingers slightly to push the blade further ahead. Recovery from this move is simple with an orthopedic grip, but can be impossible with an Italian in that the hyper-extending can push the pommel forward out of the wrist strap. If this happens the fencer loses a great deal of the Italian grip's power and handicaps himself until the director call's "Halt". Not a good place to be...

The Italian grip also requires a unique replacement blade that requires a flat surface (called the ricasso) immediately behind the bell guard, whereas the pistol grips use one blade type for all the pistol grips on the market.

For recreational fencing the Italian grip is fine. But IMHO the orthopedic family of foil handles is the better choice in terms of available fencing techniques and the plethora of replacement parts to be found at tournaments and among buddies.

I hope that helps!


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Est-ce que l'attaque etait bon? Mais Oui!!

[swordsen]

I'm curious Attila, have you ever actually used an Italian grip?
I have and rather like it. I don't use the wrist strap. This enables some real nice infighting moves. I don't recomend the hyper extending thing anyway.
You will find though that there is very littel in common betweent he use of the Italian and the run of the mill ortho grips.
Or at least, I have yet to try one that is similar.

[attila]

Greetings swordsen.

I have held an Italian and given it back to the owner in disgust. This is also the same guy I destroyed in a DE bout 15-03. Because the Italian is used with the strap ( must be according to the rules) it lacks in manouverability ( sp?). A pistol grip can be held and wielded with the finesse of a french and in a split second can be gripped and hold on to an enemy blade in a death grip until you decide to let go. It can go straight or angulate and you can let go of part of it and do the most devastating oppositions you can think of. I ask YOU, have you ever done this kind of stuff with an Italian........

Attila

[neevel]

There is no rule (at least not in the U.S., and not in the FIE, though I know of nobody using an Italian at the international level) that the Italian grip must be used with a wrist strap. The handful of fencers I know who use the Italian in competitive fencing don't use a strap. The times I've tried an Italian (without a strap), I've found it to to be only marginally stronger than a French when used with any significant degree of angulation. The added strength of the grip comes from a more-or-less passive leverage of the base of the index finger and the end of the ring finger on the crossbar-- this will work fine for classical-style straight thrusts and binds, but not nearly so well when you get into angulation and shift the grip upwards in the hand or out away from the palm. In contrast, much of the strength in a pistol grip comes from squeezing with the back three fingers on the body of the grip-- this gives you a greater ability to modulate the firmness of your grip (you can keep the thumb and forefinger relaxed while squeezing and releasing for a quicker transition from strong to finesse), and you've got a much greater contact between the grip and the fingers when you move out-of-line into angulation.

The one sort of angulation where an Italian without a strap (or a French, for that matter) might have an edge is when you come up from below an opponent's blade; the lack of the upper spire found on pistol grips allows you shift the grip further downward in your hand, giving a more pronounced upwards angulation, while the tail of the grip will be down in the fingers for a strong hold on it. Deep angulations from below aren't an overly common action, though.

A couple of other disadvantages (IMO) of Italians:
1. Blades-- the only Italian style blades available right now are basic-model France Lames blades, which aren't held in high regard by many people when it comes to longevity. Further, there's nobody selling a false ricasso foil hilt (which would allow you to use French-tang blades).
2. No tang cant. You can't put any kind of a bend in the tang with a ricasso-ed blade. I find a comfortable set at the tang to be a key factor in the 'feeling' and handling of a foil.

-Dave Neevel

[swordsen]

Attila,
What you are talking about doing is not a function of grip, it is a function of training. so your answer to my question is no. So you really don't know if it sucks or not. You just know that you didn't like it the one time you tried to hold it. teh fact that beat someone using it doesn't mean anything at all.
And as for your question, I would have to say yes, I have done those things with an Italian grip.

Neeval's comments are much more accurate in that he seems to have at least used the grip some. The big problem is blade aquisition as he stated. Although I do have a handful of blades stamped Allstar and might be convinced to part with a few of them if someone needed a couple.

[attila]

Swordsen

If the thingie works for you, fine. I still know it sucks for me. The ortho grip is state of the art. If you want work with an outdated device, that is your prerogative.

[rjccj]

The one I've held didn't feel much different from a Belgian. Most designs on pistol grips are 50 years old or more, not really state of the art. Make the decision for yourself if you like it or not, don't go on what people say. I personally wouldn't use anything other than a Visconti on any of my foils.

[attila]

Hi rjccj

Good point. However all of my pistol grips( belgian modern, several german, and a russian) are fitted to my hand. They have been modified by taking off the "trigger finger and the tail bit has been shaved to meet the bend at the wrist just right for MY hand. All of my grips look nothing like the production number they are modeled after. So let's call them state of MY art. I like to have different grips for different styles of fencing. The Belgian and the german are woderfull for the behind the back flicks. While the Russian really sits well in the hand for the more counter attacky game against a superior flicker.

Attila

" Use the right tool for the right job"

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"Kill the men, save the women, and by the gods, do not spill the beer"

[jc flick]

Ok, here is my two cents.

While I suppose it is possible to like an Italian grip for competition...I have not lost to someone who uses one in something like 8 years. It is just not conduscive to modern fencing. Without having the strap it loses its stabillity and strentght which was its "advantage" back in the day. Without the strap it has far too many holes in it...by this I mean there are an excessive amount of posionts where it becomes weak.

I have used one before...I always preferred the French grip because of the wider variety of angles possible from it. I have not fenced in competion with anything other than a pistol grip in some 13 yrs though.

Best of luck...
JC

[d8m2k]

I would just like to know why would anyone want to use an italian? Expensive, hard to find, and other grips have replaced it. Unlike the french grip, which still has advantages (posting and angulation), the Italian grip has been replaced. Even the italians don't use it. They use pistol or french (some of their epee guys).
So, unless you are a fencing to recreate some older style of fencing, why would you use it?

[swordsen]

Because I like it.
And I suppose because I'm just twisted enough to enjoy having people stare and ask "What kind of grip is that?"
Or "Aren't those illegal?"

[flik]

it's kinda fun to play around with. not particularly fond of the thing, but if the crossbar/guard is mounted oblique, it's not too bad. i like it better than the french, but that doesn't really take much.

i know of a few fencers who use the italian competitively with successful attempts; killer circle 6 and binds! none of them will touch it with the wrist strap. i just purchased an italian epee and foil for my club (with outrageous discounts of course! damned things are expensive!) to expose people to the things.

oops, gotta go, a house full of fencers and people are started to strip! (no pun intended)

[d8m2k]

Swordsen,
What do you like about it? Or do you just like being different? And it's fine to like it, just understand it's obselete in sport fencing.

Flik,
You and I must have different definitions of "successful attempts" at competition. I have yet to meet, or see, 1 successful competitive fencer using an italian grip.

[darius]

flik,
Who uses the Italian in Western NY besides the elder Hoopes? (And that's in foil, I think he uses pistol in epee...)

If you can avoid his bull-rushes and circle-6's, he's toast.

darius

[Moniteur]

Regarding the Italian foil, I've been playing with one at the salle for the last couple of weeks... my impressions are these: gripping the ricasso with a slick surfaced washable glove sucks. wrapping the ricasso with a bit of grip tape gives a lot better ability to hang on to it. (yeah, I know, you lose a lot of the sentiment du fer) I do like fencing with it more than I like fencing with a french grip foil. It requires, absolutely requires, a better execution of distance keeping than does a pistol grip. It's somewhat stronger than a french, and does allow for nice clean point movements. It makes nice beats, nice binds, and so on.
It does a nice beat flick into 4 (lefty against righty). It does parry the flick as effectively as a pistol grip weapon. It is also quite nifty to carry en garde in tierce rather than sixte

It does not flick to the back at all (w/o major hamfistedness). it does not angulate well to extreme degrees with the strap, it does not infight well with the strap. I'll qualify that by saying that modern infighting is what i mean.

All things said and done, its a different weapon for a different time, and a much different style of fencing. For serous fencing, I much prefer my visconti grip foils, but if given the choice of only french or italian, id take the italian. Yes, it is possible to fence and win bouts with an Italian grip against a pistol grip, but it takes an enormous amount of extra work.
train your fingers with it, throw it in the bag as a last ditch spare at tourneys, but don't rely on it.

best
chris

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Chris Holzman
Moniteur D' Escrime

[swordsen]

I just like it. And as far as it being obsolete, well, I really don't think the grip makes that much difference compared to the training involved.
I'm not a "national" level fencer, (especially in foil) but I am fairly successfull with the Itl. when I use it. But I am experimenting at this time with a short belgium too. Totally different set of hand moves there. Not sure I like it but it is interesting.

[d8m2k]

Swordsen,
I agree. Training is more important than equipment. A world-class fencer who used an italian for a day would still do very well. That does not mean that the right equipment is not important. For today's game, the italian grip is obselete. Don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise.
However, if you like it, have fun with it.

[This message has been edited by d8m2k (edited 02-05-2001).]