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Old 10-13-2003, 08:01 PM   #1
Jeff Savit
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[CFML] Kata in CF?

Crown teaches katas? Fascinating. Could somebody on the list describe or elaborate?

Ken Mondschein said:
> Pedagogy differs, but, no, "kata" as you're thinking of them are not
> something that classical fencing uses (unless you're Adam Crown).



--
Jeff Savit


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Old 10-13-2003, 08:01 PM   #2
Jonathan and Rebecca Barber
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Re: [CFML] Kata in CF?

> Crown teaches katas? Fascinating. Could somebody on the list describe or elaborate?

Maitre Crown uses what he calls "etudes", which are "...a pre-arranged sequence of movements that the student must memorize and perform, either alone or with a partner. These etudes correspond to the "scales" of music or the "kata" of karate, their purpose being to develop technical precision. There are etudes for all weapons (foil, sabre, smallsword, rapier and dagger) except the dueling sword."

You can find all kinds of information about Adam, his school and his approach here:

http://www.classicalfencing.com/

cordially,
Jon Barber

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Old 10-13-2003, 08:01 PM   #3
Ken Mondschein
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Re: [CFML] Kata in CF?


He talks a bit about his "etudes" on the IFV Web site.

> Crown teaches katas? Fascinating. Could somebody on the list describe or
> elaborate?
>
> Ken Mondschein said:
>> Pedagogy differs, but, no, "kata" as you're thinking of them are not
>> something that classical fencing uses (unless you're Adam Crown).

>
>
> --
> Jeff Savit
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying
> rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



--
Ken Mondschein
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Old 10-13-2003, 08:01 PM   #4
Linda Wyatt
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Re: [CFML] Kata in CF?

> Crown teaches katas? Fascinating. Could somebody on the list describe
> or elaborate?




What would you like to know?


Maitre Crown's book, "Classical Fencing: The Martial Art of Incurable
Romantics" contains both his notation method and the notation for the first
etude for foil.

We are also working on a "sheet music" version of the first etude, which
will have the notation, a complete description and illustrations, but it is
not yet finished.


Linda



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Old 10-13-2003, 08:01 PM   #5
Mariusz Wesolowski
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Re: [CFML] Kata in CF?

Linda,

Could you please give me more info on Mr. Crown's book (place and time of publication, price, availability)? I don't remember seeing it in my topical searches on Amazon.com.

Thank you kindly,

Mariusz Wesolowski

PS. I'm sending this message to the group because your computer has rejected my personal email.
----- Original Message -----
From: Linda Wyatt
To: classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [CFML] Kata in CF?


> Crown teaches katas? Fascinating. Could somebody on the list describe
> or elaborate?




What would you like to know?


Maitre Crown's book, "Classical Fencing: The Martial Art of Incurable
Romantics" contains both his notation method and the notation for the first
etude for foil.

We are also working on a "sheet music" version of the first etude, which
will have the notation, a complete description and illustrations, but it is
not yet finished.


Linda



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Old 10-14-2003, 08:00 PM   #6
Jeff Savit
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Re: [CFML] Kata in CF?

>What would you like to know?

Thanks for asking!

It's an interesting concept, and certainly novel, as applied to fencing, and I
can see where somebody with other martial arts training might think of this for
their pedagogy.

- Are they one-person or two-person forms?
- How long do they get? (eg: Yang style Tai Chi "short form" can be 3-5 minutes)
- Are they done at tempo or kept at a restrained pace?
- Are they handed? (eg: exist in both right and left handed versions) For
two-person forms, it would require the partner also learn the opposite side.
(In Kung Fu, a kata/form with weapon is taught righty only, for contrast)
- What rationale is used for devising an etude (that is, are they devised to
train a particular skillset, or are they intended to be "complete systems in
one form", as with Tai Chi short and especially long forms).

Finally, what is their purpose? We all do drills, mostly footwork when solo, or
action/response drills (from simple to multiple tempos) when in pairs, but a
kata/form/etude as a longer, varied, specific sequence of separate actions is
quite another animal. What gap is this intended to close? How are they
incorporated in a training program (are they an end in themselves, or are they a
tool for training as an adjunct to standard paired drills and lessons). Given
the goals: what has worked well, and what has not been as successful.

thanks, Jeff


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Old 10-14-2003, 08:00 PM   #7
Linda Wyatt
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Re: [CFML] Kata in CF?

At 12:56 -0700 10/13/03, Mariusz Wesolowski wrote:
> Linda,
>
> Could you please give me more info on Mr. Crown's book (place and time of
>publication, price, availability)? I don't remember seeing it in my
>topical searches on Amazon.com.
>



It is available either from our website at
http://www.classicalfencing.com/book.shtml or from amazon.

A couple of people have said they couldn't get the online ordering to work.
If that happens, please let me know. It should be working.


The retail price is $40. It was published in March 2003 by IFV Press.
You can also find more information about the book on the website.

>
> PS. I'm sending this message to the group because your computer has
>rejected my personal email.


Strange. It shouldn't have.


Linda



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Old 10-14-2003, 08:00 PM   #8
Patrick Shannon
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Re: [CFML] Kata in CF?

--- In classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Savit <jeff.savit@s...>
wrote:

> - Are they one-person or two-person forms?


Our club teaches an etude and I've always been curious where the
instructor got it from (but I've always wondered if it was influenced
by Crown). The majority of the club only knows one etude (Foil), and
as far as that one goes, it's done by a single person. However, like
martial arts classes, it can be quite beautiful when everyone is in
sync.


> - How long do they get? (eg: Yang style Tai Chi "short form" can be

3-5 minutes)

Depends on how fast or controlled the person doing them is, but if you
wonder what is involved, here are the steps in our etude (and it might
be the same etude as others and Crown describes, but I am unfamiliar
with his book, sorry)

First position (not to be confused with on guard position), draw one
(bare hand draws into the air), draw two (hand grasps foil and draws
into air), reverence (a salute to right crowd, left crowd, center
crowd, and blade tucks into chin and down), capture (blade), lift
(blade), on guard one, on guard two, advance, retreat, advance,
advance, retreat, advance, retreat, retreat, extend, withdraw, extend,
withdraw, extend - lunge, recover - withdraw, extend - lunge, recover
- withdraw, extend - lunge - "et la" (the command is actually "que du
fair?" Something like that? Never wrote it out before), recover -
withdraw, appel, reverence, and then it's back to first position.

So imaging doing that at a regular pace and that's what it is.

> - Are they done at tempo or kept at a restrained pace?


As mentioned, depends on the person. In our class or at public
demonstrations when we perform together, we move at a steady pace to
make sure all our moves are true and we're in sync.


> - Are they handed? (eg: exist in both right and left handed

versions) For
> two-person forms, it would require the partner also learn the

opposite side.

Heh heh, being backwards handed man myself, I used to always salute in
the opposite direction as the others. It's tricky that way, but
everyone does it (our etude anyway) the same way.


>
> Finally, what is their purpose? We all do drills, mostly footwork

when solo, or
> action/response drills (from simple to multiple tempos) when in

pairs, but a
> kata/form/etude as a longer, varied, specific sequence of separate

actions is
> quite another animal. What gap is this intended to close?


When I'm not fencing (which I wish I could do more often than
classtime and opportunity allows aroudn here), I keep active in Chung
Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do. And based upon my experience, the etude to
fencing serves the same purpose our forms (katas) in karate do. They
are no replacement for drills or actual fencing, but drills and
fencing are no replacement for the etude. The etude can be done alone,
are certainly less boring than static footwork, and gives you an
opportunity to practice a few moves all at once and make them as
perfect as you can. I tend to practice the etude a lot when I'm alone,
and actually plan on making up my own personal etude to practice some
of my Italian-inspired moves I've been learning recently. Also, etudes
are often demonstrated in front of an audience (other students,
onlookers, crowds, even the teacher) and like with doing katas in
karate, you know you have to put the most in each move you make to
make it look good to them and to yourself (make sure your moves apply
good, too ^_~). That translates well into fencing technique and form.

As mentioned, etude is no substitute for good drills, no more than
katas replace one step sparring or line attacks or whatnot. You can
certainly learn to fence well without the etude (duh), but they
certainly don't hurt to learn/practice. Two of our most cleanest
senior fencers in class practice the etude on a frequent basis when
they're not fencing, and they were highly complimented by other
competitors and teachers during the last tournament we participated in
as a club.

--
Patrick Shannon


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