Help Needed With Refereeing

[Talyn]

Heya Guys

Basically I need some help with refereeing steam bouts and properly calling everything.

I almost always know who gets the point but sometimes I have trouble with figuring how to say it.

Such as:
Fencer A: beats B's blade and extends
Fencer B immediately beats back and lunges

and other things like that...

I basically need a guide on how to call almost everything... well not everything but I want to make sure I can call everything correctly

I would also like to know all the possible things that a ref can say during a bout... such as Attack, Counter- attack, riposte... and etc I basically want to know all the calls so i can correctly identify what happened

1 more thing with steam bouts I have to call everything right? Like..

fencer a attacks and redoubles then recovers

theres a significant pause then fencer b attacks and fencer a counter attacks

Do i have to call everything?

Is there a webpage or anything I can go to with all this info or could someone help me with this?

[downunder]

speaking with you on msn :P

[damianip]

First, you don't have to call everything. Just the final phrase is usually sufficient. Calling a phrase that ends up with an off target is good for you and your fencers as you learn to pay attention, and they get an idea of what you do and don't see.

Second, Rudy Volkmann's book has a good chapter on directing. It doesn't specifically go into the mechanics and rules of directing but, rather, the approach and philosophy.

Third, directing dry fencing is difficult as the materiality of the touch becomes an issue not normally addressed in electric fencing.

Fourth, if you can, watch a good director in action, paying close attention to what he/she sees and how they call it. Ask questions when you can.

Fifth, practice. Just like fencing, the more directing you'll do, the more comfortable and focussed you'll become.

Paolo

[pkt]

Talyn,

damianip is correct to point out that all you have to call is the fianl sequence of actions leading to a hit be it valid or off-targer.

Nowadays, you don't need to call the action by name unless you insist: use the hand signals. If the fencers ask you "Please explain the actions." Repeat the hand signals again.

In practice, there are 19 (or 21) FIE approved terms to be used in refereeing (not directing) (My french spelling may be off)
1. en garde
2. prete
3. allez
4. halte
5. attaque
6. arret/contre attauqe
7. remise
8. redoublement
9. parade
10. riposte
11. contre riposte
12. non-valable
13. simultane
14. point (L or R, or if you prefer A droit/a gauche)
15 pointe en ligne (L or R)
16. prise de fer/attaque au fer
17. battement
18. contre-temps
19. corp-a-corps

Of these they can be broken down into 8 basic groups:
1. O = Offensive action
2. A = attacks
3. P = Parries
4. R = Ripostes
5. CR = Counter-ripostes
6. VO = Variations of offensive actions (remise, reprise & redoublements)
7. CA = Counter-attacks
8. CT = counter-times

e.g. fencers are a & b, actions are indicated by Capital letters
Oa = Offensive action by fencer a
Oa>>Aa = Offensive action by a = Attack by a
Oa+Ob>> simutaneous actions by a & b
Oa+Pb+Ob>> riposte by fencer b.
Oa+Pb+Ob+Pa+Oa>> CR = Counter riposte by fencer a
Oa+Oa>> redoublement, remise or reprise by a.

Q1. Oa+Pb+Ca>> VOa [So, what happened here?]
Q2. Oa+Ob+Pa+Oa>>CTa [So, what happened here?]

Hope these help.

PK

[Talyn]

Thanks for the help

[Wizardly]

Wow, PKT, I have never seen that kind of notation before.

Did the FIE include a translation of that list into English?

Also, don't forget one other souce of info on directing. The rule book!

[downunder]

Originally posted by Wizardly
Wow, PKT, I have never seen that kind of notation before.

Did the FIE include a translation of that list into English?

you should be refereeing in french!

[Wizardly]

Perhaps unlike France (I'm not sure whether they do or not), my country doesn't have an official language. I'll direct in the language that suits me thankyouverymuch.

OTOH, why the FIE insists on everything French is beyond me...it's not like English is the language with the most economic muscle behind it or anything. (This rant brought to you by the fact I have NO idea how to navigate the FIE website and pretty much guess based on recollections of the little Spanish I took all those years ago).

[Rolls]

I'll second that. I think everything that has an international slant should be published in English first. I hate it when I see the FIE magazine and website in French. I have nothing against other languages or against the French. I just think it's time that the FIE have adequate English translation.

Rolls.

[pkt]

Originally posted by downunder
you should be refereeing in french!

Everyone should be refing in French just in case
1. one gets so good that one qualifies for a FIE ref...
2. there are non-English speakers in the pool...

Wiz and Rolls,

Sounds like you're a couple of young persons who need a bit of historical background in International affairs.

Just like in fencing, there's a reason why everything is the way it is if only you'll spend a bit of time to find out the whys and the wherefors you'd be a lot wiser.

In the 19th Century, it was agreed by the countries that count to conduct international business in French since most of the diplomatic corps spoke French. As a result many of the international governing bodies, FIE, FIA (Automobiles), FIFA (football, in NA, soccer), just to name 3, have their international governing bodies in Europe where many people are multilingual.

These day and age, English is the lingua franca [Etymology: Italian, literally, Frankish language], hence your question.

Yes, you may ref in your country's language in your country. But if you qualify to ref internationally as an FIE ref... guess which language you HAVE to ref in other than the hand signals.

So, as long as you do not qualify as an FIE ref... you may do as you please.

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by Wizardly
Perhaps unlike France (I'm not sure whether they do or not), my country doesn't have an official language. I'll direct in the language that suits me thankyouverymuch.

OTOH, why the FIE insists on everything French is beyond me...it's not like English is the language with the most economic muscle behind it or anything. (This rant brought to you by the fact I have NO idea how to navigate the FIE website and pretty much guess based on recollections of the little Spanish I took all those years ago).

1. The US of A have an official language and Spanish ain't it though POTUS Shrub speaks it.

2. Your rant suggests to me you are not willing to open up your mind to learn things you do not know. Very sad indeed. So very stereotypical American...my apologies to my other more liberal, open-minded American friends.

PK

[chief5286]

The last time I checked, the United States didn't have an official language, though this is off topic. Did I miss something?

[pkt]

Wiz, for your benefit, here's the translation

In practice, there are 19 (or 21) FIE approved terms to be used in refereeing (not directing) (My french [in square brackets] spelling may be off)
1. on guard. [en garde]
2. Ready? [prete]
3. Play. [allez] (IMHO, "Play" sounds too much like "Prete"...)
4. Stop! [halte]
5. Attack [attaque]
6. Stop hit or Counter attack. [arret/contre attauqe]
7. Continuation. [remise]
8. redoublement
9. Parry. [parade]
10. riposte
11. Counter-riposte. [contre riposte]
12. Off target. [non-valable]
13. Simultaneous attack. [simultane]
14. point (L or R, or if you prefer A droit/a gauche)
15. Point-in-line. [pointe-en-ligne (L or R)]
16. Taking of the blade. [prise de fer/attaque au fer]
17. Beat. [battement]
18. Counter-time. [contre-temps]
19. corp-a-corps

Hope this helps.

Goethe: "Knowing another language is like having another soul."

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by Wizardly
Wow, PKT, I have never seen that kind of notation before.

I learn this notation system courtesy of the Canadian FIE triple A ref, Christian Vidosa in a ref clinic.

PK

[Inquartata]

The US does not have a de jure official language. It does have one de facto, however. Fifty years hence it may be a different one. Spanglish, probably.

[downunder]

plus the fact that french is such a nicer language

(i might point out, that as my name suggests i am australian and have no french background whatsoever, just managed to pcik it up at school)

[broncofencer]

PKT
thank you for the translations. I personbally don't care if fencing is done in Latin (that way only the over educated can understand it) but one language will do I still get confused when you have directors using half frenchterms, half italien terms, and a little English to call one action in a phrase. Which leaves me standing there scratching my head wondering how I am performing an action I have never even heard of.

[veeco]

I think Wiz and the others are not complaining about the fact that French is the official language for fencing, rather about the lack of adequate translations of the FIE's communications.

However, Escrime Magazine is edited in 3 languages, French, English, and Spanish. The FIE's official language is French, but there are 2 other "working languages" which are English and Spanish.

The news and website are being translated to English and Spanish, however, working myself in that field (localization) I can tell you that it's not an easy task to get adequate quality translations done in time, and that this costs a lot of money. This is probably why there isn't an updated version of the English rules on the FIE website.

Hopefully, with time it will be available, just be patient. And if you can't wait, start learning French, it's great to know more than your mother tongue, and if you know some French people you'll be able to surprise them by talking to them in their native language. When they ask why, you can take them fencing, and that'll be the world backwards: Americans teaching French people about fencing!

To end my message, just one interesting statistic: more than 1/2 of the world wide web is edited in another language than English.

[Rolls]

Sounds like you're a couple of young persons who need a bit of historical background in International affairs.

No I'm a college graduate and professional. I am quite aware of the why of the FIE. I simply think it is time for a change.

There is a strong movement to make fencing more TV / viewer friendly even at the cost of fencing. Well, I feel there's a simple step that would not effect fencing at all. Make it English. English is MUCH more TV friendly.

countries that count to conduct international business in French

Let's face it this IS an antiquated idea. Today, if you want to count, business is done in English. It's a fact of life. The FIE would benefit greatly from conducting their business in primarily in English and possibly secondarily in French. However, if business (including refereeing) is conducted in English, there really wouldn't be a point in doing it in French.

No, I don't hate French or other languages. I think that French is a very nice language. My wife speaks it quite well. Yes, I do have working knowledge of serval other languages besides English. It's a matter of practicallity.

However, I would like to say that I appreciate Veeco's translation efforts. It is a daunting task. I worked with several translators on making different language versions of a web site once and know first hand how dificult it can be. In the absence of making English the standard language of the FIE, I think a good English tranlation is a must. So, keep up the good work Veeco.

Rolls.

[veeco]

Yeah, I am not the one who translates the FIE website or anything... I just work in the localization field, and have to deal with translators all the time, and get them to deliver translations on time, and then tell them that their translations suck... That's all ;-)