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cowpaste · 10-08-2003, 03:48 AM

For the point weapons, is there any specific rules concerning trapping the blade with the sword arm? Every once in a while, blades will get caught on someone's armpit or elbow. Some of my opponents will then trap/squeeze it on purpose while "riposting" ackwardly. I've only seen rules about the offhand arm, but never about the weapon hand arm.

swordsen · 10-08-2003, 08:28 AM

I do not recall anything specific in the rules about it. Nor in my many years have I ever seen anyone overtly penelaized for it.

walrus418 · 10-08-2003, 10:22 AM

According to paragraph t22, "The use of the non-sword hand and arm to carry out an offensive or defensive action is forbidden. ... Should such an offense occur the touch scored by the fencer at fault is annulled." I believe the scenario you describe fits into this category. It is a first group offense, punished by a yellow card (initial), then red cards thereafter.

canthidefromme · 10-08-2003, 10:41 AM

t.18
... The bout stops on the word 'Halt', except in the case of special events occurring which modify the regular and normal conditions of the bout (cf. also t.32)... The order 'Halt' is also given if the fencing or the competitors is dangerous, confused, or contrary to the Rules...

I suppose intentionally trapping your blade could be seen as confused/disorderly or maybe dangerous (the blade could snap and impale a lung... its a stretch).

Inquartata · 10-08-2003, 09:16 PM

That answers the question for the off hand and arm. What about the weapon arm? And for that matter the legs? ( I have jokingly seized an opponents blade between my knees after a missed leg touch when dabbling in epee. )

Wizardly · 10-09-2003, 12:34 AM

I'm curious to hear the expert opinion on thi one.

I'm thinking a halt is called and no more.

swordsen · 10-09-2003, 03:09 AM

My experience is that a halt get's called pretty quickly. No other penalty.

downunder · 10-09-2003, 03:39 AM

halt immediately called, counterattack should not be valid, as it is out of time

Artisan · 10-09-2003, 03:59 PM

My understanding is that the "halt'" occurs with the action or circumstance that produces it, not with the utterance by the referee. So even if the trapper makes counter attack "in time" it is not valid... and the rules specifically disallow the touch in this case anyway.

Marcos · 10-14-2003, 07:05 AM

it's a yellow card offense

downunder · 10-14-2003, 07:44 AM

ur not gonna call it an abnormal fencing action are you?

i can't see any reason to bring out the cards....

pkt · 10-14-2003, 03:32 PM

Marcos is wrong.

If the weapon is trapped by the sword arm, hand or finger there is NO rule in the rule book that forbids it per se. In most case the trapping occurs accidentally. If the Ref sees that he should call 'Halte!" since one fencer cannot wield his weapon...

In reality, the trapping takes place so quickly that it usu. goes un-noticed and therefore uncalled. Try to see a foil foilble being caught in the opp's finger in the heat of an action then you'll see what i mean.

It is not dissimilar to the "parrying by the bottom of the lead foot's shoe" or "stepping on the opp's blade". There is no rule against these situations either since a foot is NOT a non-sword arm. ARM - FOOT. Not the same. A ref cannot make up rules on the spot.

So, if the ref cannot see it he'll not call "Halt!" hence the riposte - that's what the CO - counter-offensive action - should be called, should count.

Mindful this is reality. This is not a ref study as per the USFA study.

PK

Wizardly · 10-14-2003, 03:52 PM

Yes, why would you yellow card it exactly?

edew · 10-14-2003, 06:30 PM

The referee should call halt immediately as the fencer cannot effectively wield the weapon. There would not be a penalty in that case, unless the reason was intentional (throwing the weapon, say).

Rolls · 10-14-2003, 06:37 PM

Ok. I thought I pretty much understood the scenario, but now I admit that I am confused.

Let's say Fencer A attack Fencer B. Fencer B parries, then uses his weapon hand (while still holding his own weapon) to hold his fencer A's weapon, then Fencer B ripostes landing a touch while Fencer A is unable to parry.

Assuming the director saw all of this and assuming that it was intentional and that the director somehow knows it is intentional, what happens?

What if it were unitentional (say the point of the weapon just got caught in Fencer B's body cord)?

Rolls.

downunder · 10-14-2003, 08:27 PM

halt is called, no penalty...