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Old 10-07-2003, 08:00 PM   #1
Patrick Shannon
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[CFML] Getting heavy hitters under control

Hey all,

In the year that I have been helping out my own instructor
by teaching new students basic Foil, I have found it to be
a rich experience that has helped developed my own fencing
as well as helped others (I have trained quite a few
terrific students that are still with the club to this
day). It's been real challenging too, to say the least.
Since we run out of a local fitness/recreational center,
we tend to get people of all types...not always ones
particularly interested in fencing all the time (for
example, uninterested kids whose parents put them in there
as "day care" while they go work out, or passing fad types
of people). I've learned to deal with many types of
course, and of those who refuse to learn, my teacher told
me to humor them for the time being and they will lose
interest eventually.

I've had an interesting challenge, recently. Not always,
but I tend to get one or two males in the group that get
the sudden urge to "sword bash" (too much) to get past
defenses and get that hit. Now I remember my very first
match years ago, and I certainly remember how awkward it
was and can certainly understand their point of view of
why they want to clang swords (even though it's not
right). Typically, these people would take advice and work
themselves out of it rather quickly, so it never became a
real problem.

But my most recent batch of students has two male
students, both teenagers, that refuse to grow out of it.
We've gone through the "fencing is an art and science and
not a marathon" speeches, and many control exercises and
technique refinements, but they start to turn fencing into
baseball when they start. Naturally as the other students
fenced each other and was doing well (and I was extremely
impressed how thoughtful and clean one of the younger
children was for his age), I noticed that the two sword
bashers were fencing against one another and I realized
the mistake in the pairing. I immediately halted them and
called them on what they were doing and to relax, then
told them to resume so I could access the situation. Once
again, they were up to their old habits quickly. I figured
that perhaps one of them was being too rough while the
other was adjusting to this in a means of panic, so I
broke the pair up and assigned them (and everyone else) to
different opponents in rotation.

I don't remember too much about how one guy did
immediately after that moment, but the other still had my
ire (to the point that club fencers noticed the grimace on
my face when I watched him fence). This rather tall guy
was being extremely rough with his female opponent, and
she wasn't at all impressed when he nailed very hard in
her assets (which quickly prompted her to wear protectors,
which I wasn't aware she was without).

I finally got fed up and stepped in myself to fence him to
demonstrate how blade wacking and force isn't necessary.
In a very short bout, I got a few hits on him while using
his excessively wide blade movements against him and using
his "whack" as a means to draw him with a feint followed
by a degage. Everything seemed to rub off on him and even
landed a very nice, clean hit on me by using his distance
and long reach. I complimented him for using his "true"
strength against me and went through my usual lectures,
and went on my way.

Later, I pitted everyone against experienced fencers and I
believe he drifted back to his old ways (perhaps out of
fustration from being unable to get through their
defense), but the fencers knew how to effectively deal
with this.

There's more to this story and I will say that he did
begin to fence a little cleaner, but I need not go on. As
for the other student, he lapsed in and out of his ways,
and I had a rather awkward moment when his father who
wondered in approached me with a hopeful face and asked
how he was doing. (This reminded me of a line from Miss
Bliss on Saved By the Bell about report cards, "parents
expecting the best, students expecting the worst, and
teachers having to put it all somewhere between")

For those who teach out there, what have been some of your
experiences with rough students and bringing them under
control? I'd like to take this opportunity to learn from
this, and though my own instructor is correct in saying
that some people refuse to learn, I don't really like
giving up on anyone if I can help it...especially if it
means turning them on to classical fencing.

--
Patrick Shannon

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Old 10-07-2003, 08:00 PM   #2
Brian D. Schenck
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Posts: n/a
Re: [CFML] Getting heavy hitters under control

--- Patrick Shannon <patrickshannon@charter.net> wrote:
> For those who teach out there, what have been some of your experiences with
> rough students and bringing them under control? I'd like to take this
> opportunity to learn from this, and though my own instructor is correct in
> saying that some people refuse to learn, I don't really like giving up on
> anyone if I can help it...especially if it means turning them on to classical
> fencing.
>

It's good to do this, as there will always be fencers who initially believe
that power and strength are the means by which to fence, rather than finesse
and technique with the blade itself.

I've taken two approaches with fencers who exhibit this approach to fencing.
The first one is to discuss with them that control is not about strength or
power, it's about handling the blade and utilizing simple actions to take
control. We talk about conservation of energy, that too large a motion will
expose target and reducing the ability to respond to an attack. We discuss how
this impacts speed and accuracy. And lastly, we sit down over the rules, and
how this impacts the actual calls they can expect in a bout. Usually, those
with prior experience with sports or other organized activities will realize
this and settle down.

The second one is to sit them down and talk about safety when fencing, and that
hitting hard reduces the safety of the other fencer. Hitting hard has
consequences when you are using a long piece of metal, that under the wrong
circumstances can become a very deadly piece of metal. Causing injury to their
fellow fencers is not an objective of fencing, and that they will find
themselves without a partner to practice on if it becomes known that they do
hit their opponents very hard. Usually, this is a matter of last resort, and
if brought up, will calm most people down.

While there will be instances where a particular lunge or thrust will hit with
a fair amount of force, and leave a bruise, these approaches have ensured (at
least in my experience) that these are much less common than they may have been
before. I'm interested in seeing what others have to say though.


-Brian

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Old 10-07-2003, 08:00 PM   #3
Kim Moser
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Re: [CFML] Getting heavy hitters under control

At 12:20 PM 10/7/2003 -0400, "Patrick Shannon" <patrickshannon@charter.net>
wrote:
>[...] For those who teach out there, what have been some of your
>experiences with rough students and bringing them under
>control? I'd like to take this opportunity to learn from
>this, and though my own instructor is correct in saying
>that some people refuse to learn, I don't really like
>giving up on anyone if I can help it...especially if it
>means turning them on to classical fencing.


In my experience, as you've apparently also discovered, it's best to keep
wild fencers away from each other. Once paired up with a more relaxed
fencer, if you find they're still unable to control themselves then stop
them from fencing entirely and limit them to drills. If they can't get the
drills right, well, then that's obviously what they need to work on.

I also try to emphasize that the drills will teach them the basics, just as
aspiring musicians practice musical scales. How can you possibly perform a
symphony when you can't even play the scales? How can you become a great
soccer player unless you practice kicking and passing? Sure, I can hand a
sword to any random person and they'll do reasonably well defending
themselves against a similarly unskilled opponent. But learning to fence
isn't simply about waving a sword around, which amounts to little more than
digging into a shallow bag of tricks; it's all about learning to maximize
your ability to defend yourself according to a systematized methodology.

--K


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Old 10-07-2003, 08:00 PM   #4
Mike
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Posts: n/a
Re: [CFML] Getting heavy hitters under control

I use several approaches depending on the individuals.
1. drills on opposition parries and no spanking parries
2. glide and opposition attacks instead of beats
3. no touch counts that I can hear an impact of blades
4. lectures on safety, effectiveness, and stamina
5. go a thirty touch bout to really fatigue them
6. explain how gently slicing turkey is much more satisfying than hammering
nails
7. explain how a pile-driven bayonet will lodge solidly in bone losing the
weapon, but a gentle slice stops at bone allowing combat to continue
8. lastly - tell everyone in front of the whacker that they do not need to
fence this individual if they do not feel safe
Only had to use the last one once.
Mike

> But my most recent batch of students has two male
> students, both teenagers, that refuse to grow out of it.
> We've gone through the "fencing is an art and science and
> not a marathon" speeches, and many control exercises and
> technique refinements, but they start to turn fencing into
> baseball when they start. Naturally as the other students
> fenced each other and was doing well (and I was extremely
> impressed how thoughtful and clean one of the younger
> children was for his age), I noticed that the two sword
> bashers were fencing against one another and I realized
> the mistake in the pairing. I immediately halted them and
> called them on what they were doing and to relax, then
> told them to resume so I could access the situation. Once
> again, they were up to their old habits quickly. I figured
> that perhaps one of them was being too rough while the
> other was adjusting to this in a means of panic, so I
> broke the pair up and assigned them (and everyone else) to
> different opponents in rotation.
>
> I don't remember too much about how one guy did
> immediately after that moment, but the other still had my
> ire (to the point that club fencers noticed the grimace on
> my face when I watched him fence). This rather tall guy
> was being extremely rough with his female opponent, and
> she wasn't at all impressed when he nailed very hard in
> her assets (which quickly prompted her to wear protectors,
> which I wasn't aware she was without).
>
> I finally got fed up and stepped in myself to fence him to
> demonstrate how blade wacking and force isn't necessary.
> In a very short bout, I got a few hits on him while using
> his excessively wide blade movements against him and using
> his "whack" as a means to draw him with a feint followed
> by a degage. Everything seemed to rub off on him and even
> landed a very nice, clean hit on me by using his distance
> and long reach. I complimented him for using his "true"
> strength against me and went through my usual lectures,
> and went on my way.
>
> Later, I pitted everyone against experienced fencers and I
> believe he drifted back to his old ways (perhaps out of
> fustration from being unable to get through their
> defense), but the fencers knew how to effectively deal
> with this.
>
> There's more to this story and I will say that he did
> begin to fence a little cleaner, but I need not go on. As
> for the other student, he lapsed in and out of his ways,
> and I had a rather awkward moment when his father who
> wondered in approached me with a hopeful face and asked
> how he was doing. (This reminded me of a line from Miss
> Bliss on Saved By the Bell about report cards, "parents
> expecting the best, students expecting the worst, and
> teachers having to put it all somewhere between")
>
> For those who teach out there, what have been some of your
> experiences with rough students and bringing them under
> control? I'd like to take this opportunity to learn from
> this, and though my own instructor is correct in saying
> that some people refuse to learn, I don't really like
> giving up on anyone if I can help it...especially if it
> means turning them on to classical fencing.
>
> --
> Patrick Shannon
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier

blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




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Old 10-08-2003, 08:00 PM   #5
Robert DeVoe
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Re: [CFML] Getting heavy hitters under control

I think there are several really good points that you make and that others
have already made. I found that blade bashing usually started after
instructing the students on the beat and other blade attacks. As a result I
moved those techniques to an intermediate class and stressed dissengages and
simple feints (the 1-2 drill and double drill) in the beginner class. When
blade attacks are eventually introduced it is done over a 2 class period and
it is stressed as simply another techinique but one that can easily be
defeated if constantly used.

You need to reinforce the safety factor to these students.

1 - Reinforce their drills by limiting who they are allowed to fence. Be
sure that those that do fence them are better technically than them but be
sure to watch them and stop the bout as you see fit to offer critical
instruction on technique. Praise them when they are fencing correctly.
2 - Have them fence yourself and other instructors and point out to them the
constant need to practice form. Sometimes it is better for a point to be
made by two people in a position of authority in order for something to sink
in.
3 - Lengthen the time of drills. Make sure that everyone understands the
drills are to be used to practice correct form. Call out the sequence of
drills and slow them down, if you see their techinque failing during the
drill, halt it and make physical adjustments to their form.
4- Allow other student to decline to fence them. They will eventually get
the point.
5 - Don't let them fence each other as this is obvously just reinforcing the
bad points.

Robert DeVoe


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


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