Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Pet Rat · 10-07-2003, 05:19 PM

Hey all, I plan to start taking some lessons pretty soon, but I'm having a crisis of sorts deciding whether to go with fencing (foil) or kendo. So I'd like to have my cake and eat it by starting both at the same time. Is there anyone who's attempted both? I imagine they differ significantly in foot and bladework, but do they share enough similar aspects to make it worthwhile without sabotaging my advancement in both disciplines? Part of me predicts horrible confusion and doom, but the other part is very intrigued. Thanks.

pkt · 10-07-2003, 08:03 PM

Why not do kendo and SABRE at the same time, then you'll be dealing with two cutting weapons.
See me fence against a kendoka in
http://www.fencing101.com/Photo_Gall...e=user&page=14
Other than some details, the actions are fairly similar, more similar than you can imagine.

PK

Talyn · 10-07-2003, 09:53 PM

I know 2 people who do kendo at once... both of whom have horrible counter-attack problems.

I'm sure if you put the same amount of work in as everyone else then you'll do just fine.

three_hundred_fifty_five · 10-08-2003, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pet Rat

...Is there anyone who's attempted both?
Yes, I've heard of people doing one then the other, never starting both simultaneously.

I imagine they differ significantly in foot and bladework, but do they share enough similar aspects to make it worthwhile without sabotaging my advancement in both disciplines?
They do share some aspects such as distance and timing but because you are a beginner in both, you are kind of making it difficult on yourself trying to master two different styles at once. The footwork is different. Stance is different. Rules are different. I would say you are going in over your head and will master neither. One (either fencing or kendo) is hard enough to become intermediate-level good.

Part of me predicts horrible confusion and doom, but the other part is very intrigued. Thanks.
You can give it go. No reason you can't. You will want to drop one and continue in the other in order to get good in at least one of them.

pkt · 10-08-2003, 04:48 AM

rat,

it all depends on your discipline ability. As I suggested earlier, I highly recommend doing sabre with kendo rather thna foil.

The moves are not too dissimilar, except that one is doen with one hand and the other with 2. hence my question re your self-discipline.

I switch my mental gear whenever I hold my sabre which is different from the foil grip. So if you can swift your mental gears then go for it, if not, then do one at a time and learnt he other by 'osmosis'; it'll make life a lot easier for yourself.

If you can't switch gear then don't do it.

PK

Paulo Walsh · 10-08-2003, 05:11 AM

I (admittedly only recently) started fencing with sabre but have been training in Kendo for a while.... I treat sabre the same way as fencing with a shoto (short sword)...but a bit longer.....

One concept I have trouble with however is the flat block for a strike to the head... because in Kendo a flat block is discouraged..

As a recommendation.. I would not start them both at the same time... but dedicate yourself to one... until you fall confortably into the training patterns.

If you must do both at the same time... I would recommend that you try sabre.. and if your sensei teaches it try shoto or nito

Remember JACK...

Louweasel · 10-08-2003, 01:12 PM

When I first read the thread title I had this vision of you standing there with a sword in one hand an a stick in the other...

pkt · 10-08-2003, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paulo Walsh
I (admittedly only recently) started fencing with sabre but have been training in Kendo for a while.... I treat sabre the same way as fencing with a shoto (short sword)...but a bit longer.....

One concept I have trouble with however is the flat block for a strike to the head... because in Kendo a flat block is discouraged..

...

Paulo & rat,

these are just difference in convention, in tradition in the raison d'etre for the two sports.

Remember, in kendo you ARE trying to cut the opp in halves whereas in fencing it's just a sport where you're only 'hitting' to indicate you've made contact with the valid target. You can get carded for hard hitting in fencing.

I presume by 'flat block' you mean the 5th quint parry in sabre.
Assuming that is correct, 5th parry in kendo will not work since the cutting force is so much higher.

Heck, 5th doesn't even work in sabre if the attacker was prepared for it, he can overcome it by either brute force or angulating around the parry.

This brings up a fundamental concept:
In sword fighting, be it fencing, kendo, wushu or tai-chi sword there are reasons certain things are done and certain other things are not done. The master passes this on most times without giving the reasons. If the student wants to disobey the master's teaching and find out for himself, then by all means, try it out and see what happens. It might be a breakthrough or you, the student might end up losing the point or hurt.

Any way, explore and find out. That's how one learns.

PK

jjg · 10-08-2003, 03:26 PM

If you changed the rules of sabre so that only the upper torso is the target like foil, would it completely change the game and not be as flakey.

It · 10-09-2003, 03:35 AM

Soon my club, or that is the building where my club is going to be located will have Both. Olympis style fencing on Mon and Wed. Kendo Fencing on Tues and Fri. And Private lessons for both on some Sat and Sun. So you can say we're a four weapon fencing program!

Ky-Fi · 10-09-2003, 07:21 PM

I've been fencing for almost 2 years, and I've also been practicing Chinese martial arts for about 6 years. I've focused a lot on Taiji saber and sword. I think the Chinese styles may be a bit closer to Western fencing than the Japanese, as you generally hold the sword with one hand, but there are still some major differences.

I've found them to be complimentary, and I haven't had much of a problem studying both at the same time. But, I will give myself some credit for my approach. I know one thing my Taiji teacher always stresses is the idea of "emptying your cup" when you go to learn something new. I had been studying Taiji saber for a few years when I started fencing, but I went into fencing with the attitude that I didn't know anything (which, in regards to western fencing, proved to be quite accurate

). I figure my Taiji teacher has been studying his arts for about 35 years, and he knows what he's doing--my fencing teacher has been fencing for about the same amount of time, and he knows what he's talking about. When I"m in fencing class, I listen to the instructor, and try to do everything he says. Same thing when I'm in Taiji class.

Sometimes I reflect and see a lot of similarities, and can see where one art helps the other, and I figure that may eventually come out naturally, but for the most part I don't force anything and always try to completely focus on the art I'm doing at the time. To do otherwise I think would be disrespectful to my teachers, and I think it would be detrimental to my own progression.

So anyways, I like doing two different sword arts, but I agree with pkt--different arts have different overall goals as well as different techniques, and it's best to try to keep them separate mentally.

DCB · 10-10-2003, 04:31 PM

I would not begin studying Kendo and Fencing at the same time, primarily because I think that the differences between the two will prevent you from developing "conditioned reflexes," which are key to both pursuits. I studied both Kenjutsu (classical Japanese swordmanship) and Aikido (empty-hand techniques derived in part from Kenjutsu) while studying Karate, but not until I already had a firm foundation in Karate (i.e., 10 years). In fact, I originally started to study Aikido shortly after I became a black belt in Karate, and I found it to be very frustrating because I still had lots to learn in Karate, and I was getting confused between the two arts. I believe that it is better to become rooted in one art, then branch out into other arts. This concept is fundamental to many traditional eastern martial arts schools, which typically require a student to develop a basic skill level in empty hand techniques before attempting to learn weapons. I'm presently a rank beginner in Fencing, and I can assure you that you'll have plenty to learn at first, whichever art you decide to pursue! Good luck with whatever you decide to pursue.

Paulo Walsh · 11-03-2003, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pkt
Why not do kendo and SABRE at the same time, then you'll be dealing with two cutting weapons.
See me fence against a kendoka in
http://www.fencing101.com/Photo_Gall...e=user&page=14
Other than some details, the actions are fairly similar, more similar than you can imagine.

PK

Could you please explain these photos.... how could a Kendoka fence you seriously when you were not wearing protective armour?
or was this just for a photo shoot?

pkt · 11-03-2003, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paulo Walsh
Could you please explain these photos.... how could a Kendoka fence you seriously when you were not wearing protective armour?
or was this just for a photo shoot?

Paulo,

Yes, and Yes.

It was Clubs Day and since there were both Fencing and Kendo demonstrations and since both parties were curious and interested in finding out how we'd do against one another. So initially, the kendoka donned one of the fencing masks and we went at it. We found out that the results were similar.

Then we got the attention of the fotog of the campus newspaper and he got us to "go outside" to do the shoot. That's what you have in the fotos. For this the kendoka kept his kendo mask and I promised not to hit him in the face with my point, just cuts.

I can assure you it was fun. I might have scratched his 'dao' with my stomach or chest cuts.

PK