Pistol grips: When is it appropriate to make the transition?

[Feanor]

Hello All!

I'm enjoying my short fencing career immensely! In no small part due to my instructor and the great people I've met at the school!

The advice I have been given thus far when discussing the French Grip vs the multitude of Pistol Grips is that its most advisable to use the French grip to develop point control before moving to the Pistol grips.

I have noted that movement of the foil blade is much more "powerful" with the Pistol grips and in many ways more natural, while at the same time in my "novice" hands the point is a bit "whippy" and this in direct comparison to when I use the French grip and the point seems to settle down far more quickly and I have a much better percentage of hitting the area that I am actually aiming at, albeit a bit more slowly.

My main question is: Is it advisable to stay with the French grip for a longer period of time as a novice? Months? a year? more? as conditioning and building a base of proper control and technique? Or would it also be acceptable to start with the pistol grip sooner, working thru the teething period sooner, than later in order to work with the tool I assume I will be using on a more permanent basis much farther down the road perhaps in competitions?

How long did everyone stay with the French grip before they transitioned to the Pistol grips?

Thanks in advance!

[Talen]

I never made the transition. I have about 2+ years with the French handle. I have no intention of switching. It isn't a matter of which grip is better, it is a matter of philosophy. As I see it, the ortho grips are an extension of the Italian school which is more forceful against the opponent's blade. The French grip favors a more subtle approach.

In terms of comfort, my choice is still the sabre handle - it's more natural to my hand.

Your choice of handle - like choice of weapon - needs to favor your philisophical bent.

Just my two cents worth.

[glowstix]

i personally made the transition after 7 months after giving it much thought. i gave the french grip every chance in the world to prove everyone right but for me the reverse was true. with the french grip i had no point control whatsoever. i used my wrist much more than my manipulator fingers which supposedly is not good. with the french grip there was tendency to vice grip it because i was so paraniod about dropping it in bouts and my technique suffered. and all this after i continuously harrassed the coach to keep checking my grip to make sure it was correct since i wasnt' seeing the supposed benefits.

since then i've switched to the russian grip (not the most popular pistol grip). my point control is better and i am using more fingers as opposed to wrist and overall it just feels better and more secure and there is NOT a tendency to vice grip it.

[Feanor]

Thanks for the reply Talen!

and thanks for allowing me to clarify on the original I admit after seeing the narrower vision of it I was actually proceeding from the assumption that because I see the orthopedic grips almost exclusively in modern competition that they must in some way be superior to French grips. I suppose a more enlightened approach would be to say that the Pistol Grips work best for those in competition, or that they favor the styles used there.

Its kind of an interesting dilemna for me because on looking back at my "style" of fencing, it appears I favor the parry-riposte and initiate the action far less than I react to it. I find that the type of movement that feels most natural to me as well as my fencing "philosophy" (if someone as new as me can have one ) Is one of letting my opponent begin the phrase, closing the distance, and then fighting "close-in"

I find with the French grip I have a much weaker parry against a strong blade, but a much more accurate riposte with much more control of the targetting.

With the Pistol Grip I have a much stronger and sure response to the attack, but my point work for the riposte is "fidgety" in addition it is more difficult to make some of the more subtle and extreme wrist movements required when the distance is close.

The Pistol grip feels far more secure, while with the French, fencing with stronger opponents I've come close on several occasions of being disarmed, and spend a bit more time being distracted by having to correct my grip position...

My stronger urge is to stay with the French grip for as long as I can. I am not convinced that I will ever even formally compete so this may be possible. It just feels as though my hand is the tip of the blade with the French grip and that my hand is the grip manipulating the tip with the Pistol grips. Maybe I'm just slow in the head, but I feel more in tune with the French grip as odd as that might sound.

I was mistakenly assuming that the Orthopedic grips were more of an evolution of fencing more than they are a variation or adaptation...

Thanks Talen for the correction!

[Cerian]

I started out with a pistol grip... My point control may have suffered but I can't tell.

[damianip]

In épée? Never.

In foil. when your instructor says so.

Paolo

[Kismet]

I fenced foil for about 3 months, then I switched to epee, and therefore the pistol grip. So I switched to pistol grip after about 3 months. I think.

[Talyn]

I think its time to switce to pistol when you use your fingers to control the blade during disengages, counter-disengages and etc

The again... I started off with a pistol grip and it has taken me about a year to correct my bad habits - most of which still creep up every now and then.

[Rolls]

I happily used the french grip for a year switched to a pistol grip (german) for a year then switched back to the french grip for several years. Now, I have recently switched back to a pistol grip (belgian).

I say use the french grip. You can always switch to the pistol grip later (if ever), but I think the longer you use a French grip the more "good" habits you will learn.

On a side note, Talen said

As I see it, the ortho grips are an extension of the Italian school which is more forceful against the opponent's blade. The French grip favors a more subtle approach.

This is a misconception. If you hold an italian grip (or fence someone using one), you will find that it is not at all like orthopedic grips. In fact, all orthopedic grips that I know of are made to be held EXACTLY like a French grip, which is quite different than the italian grip. Orthopedic grips are very much rooted in the French style. Also, it really is a misconception that the Italian style is more forceful.

Rolls.

[epeefencer74]

I suggest sticking with the french grip for a couple of years. Get in all you basics with the french grip. Then tryout with someone else's pistol grip. You'll find that the techniques you've learnt using the french grip will translate easily to the pistol grip. And if this suits you then invest in one

I find that the french grip is less forgiving of mistakes and therefore forces the fencer to drop his bad habits.

Competition success using a pistol grip will come faster but it doesn't last as long. However using a french grip, success is slow but usually it lasts for a longer period.

[Avril Roddam]

Whenever you feel like it.
This kid I'm teaching started with a french grip, changed to a pistol grip, changed back to french and has decided he's happy with french. His sister on the other hand, was happy with Pistol from the start.

[remise]

My son has fenced for almost 7 years---exclusively with a french grip. He tried a pistol briefly, and in his words, couldn't hit the back end of an elephant. The french grip develops good habits and excellent point control.

As for the 'hard' parries, evade them! I've been told by more than one adult fencer that my son has a wicked disengage.

[edwin012290]

i'd say switch to an orthopedic. i've been using a french for about a year, and then switched to an italian pistol. now im beating more people than i did with the french. im not sure about french grips being good about point control because my point control has improved by using an orthopedic, especially in epee, where its much easier to get shots in the hand area like the pinkies

[TheSyndicate]

I switched to a pistol grip after 3 months and never looked back! I'd say go with whatever is more comfortable in your hand, practice on tip control and be Happy

[OROD]

You need to train with what you intend to use. And if you intend to compete then you need to train with a pistol grip and you're wasting your time with a French grip. You are also going on the assumption that whatever point control you develop with a French grip will somehow transfer when you switch to pistol. What makes you think this? They are different grips, so probably if you develop good point control then you will lose it when you switch grips. Just switch to pistol grips and work on your point control with that. Honestly, I cant think of one advantage a French grip has over a pistol grip.


.

[Cipher]

The french is good developmentally, but not in the aspect that it gives you better point control... it teaches you to use your fingers rather than your wrist and it develops the necessary finger strength. The pistol will do the same thing, but many people say that it will happen slower with the pistol as it is easier to "cheat" when you're tired. You can do the same thing with the french but when beginners do this they will either hold it like a bat or drop their weapon a lot so it is more visible.

Different people have different pedagogies regarding this, but I would suggest that you ask your coach and listen to his advice. He, no doubt, knows more about fencing than you do and has the advantage over us of actually being able to see you fence. He should know what is best for your development. If he doesn't, or tells you do to whatever you want, then just switch to the pistol and make a point of not letting bad habits develop.

[mrbiggs]

It's very difficult (though not impossible by any means) to fence competitively with a French grip. The disadvantage in strength is huge.

Also, keep in mind that there is a transition time between the two, because French and Pistol grips are held very differently. At first, you will have trouble controlling the pistol grip. So in other words, keep in mind that you have a transition time (it was about a month for me) during which you'll have alot of trouble fencing.

[Mr Epee]

Dear Heavenly Father,

Please help people control their desire to bring dead threads to life.

There really should be a 6-12 month limit on this sort of thing.

Help them see the light, lest they be stricken down in the darkness

In the name of Jesus, your son.


Amen

[Cipher]

wow, check that out... I didn't even notice this thing was two years old

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Wow, I was going to reply. I dont think feanor would care right now. On the flip side, lets discuss it anyway, for the sake of talking about fencing.

In foil, I would say never. The prevalence of extreme athleticism in foil, combined with right of way, makes speed and power very important. If you learn with the foil to just evade their blade or use soft parry's, especially with the new timings, you're going to die.

In epee however, the french grip is an awesome tool for teaching distance control, blade evasion and the counter attack, as well as angulation. The choice though, is whether or not to take your newfound powers and apply them to fencing with a pistol grip, or to continue to exploit the advantages of the french grip.