Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Kismet · 10-07-2003, 02:48 AM

I use a pistol grip, but to tell you the truth, I have no idea what the difference is between a Visconti grip or a Russian grip or any others. Anyone care to enlighten me?

MyraTrue · 10-07-2003, 04:40 AM

Hmm... the often discussed topic.

I'll add this much- there are a large variety of pistol grips on the market. To get a look at the differences with some fairly standard ones, http://www.thefencingpost.com/foil_blades.htm should have pictures for the various grips they sell (Visconti, German, Belgian, and Russian). Scroll down to grips, and at least you get a visual idea. Sorry, I'm not sure of somewhere else that better illustrates.

Oh, please, just don't ask the board which is better.

Everyone likes a different grip, for different reasons. In the end, if the grip feels good in your hand, and fits your fencing style (experience being the best test), its good. (Ie: I like German, followed fairly closely by the Visconti. Can't stand Belgian, don't like Russian.)

hope something in there helped.

Myra

rsy · 10-07-2003, 08:29 AM

Has anyone had any experience with a gardere grip? It is a cross between a pistol and a french grip. Leon Paul sells one and I was told that it is very popular in Europe, but I have never seen one in use here.

My youngest fencer wants to move from a french to a pistol (just like his older brother), but I am concerned it is too soon and he will loose the point control he is beginning to develop. The gardere seems like an intermediate step that might satisfy both needs. Any comments?

-r

damianip · 10-07-2003, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rsy
Has anyone had any experience with a gardere grip? It is a cross between a pistol and a french grip. Leon Paul sells one and I was told that it is very popular in Europe, but I have never seen one in use here.

My youngest fencer wants to move from a french to a pistol (just like his older brother), but I am concerned it is too soon and he will loose the point control he is beginning to develop. The gardere seems like an intermediate step that might satisfy both needs. Any comments?

-r

The design of the Gardere grip makes it illegal (at least in the USFA, and by extension, FIE).

There are many threads in this and other forums which have very detailed discussions on the whys and wherefores.

Paolo

rsy · 10-07-2003, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by damianip
The design of the Gardere grip makes it illegal (at least in the USFA, and by extension, FIE.).

Paolo,

Your response certainly explains why I haven't seen any Gardere grips in the US. Thanks for the heads up.

-r

neevel · 10-07-2003, 03:54 PM

You're not going to see many Gardere grips anywhere, as they are not permitted by FIE rules (it's an orthopedic design that does not fix one position for the hand with the thumb less than 2 cm from the guard-- i.e., you can pommel-hold it but not have as great a loss of strenght to compensate for the extra reach).

-Dave

Cerian · 10-07-2003, 05:53 PM

Foil grips

I've tried Visconti, Belgian, Shermasport, and Rambeaux. I have to say I like the Rambeaux, it seems to keep my wrist in a correct position and help with point control.

Grip choice really is a personal thing. If at all possible go to a place where you can try a bunch out. Luckily I'm close to American Fencing Supply so I was able to try out all the grips.

Kismet · 10-07-2003, 08:53 PM

Thanks everybody!

The thing that I'm concerned about is that if I decide to buy an epee, I have to buy it off the internet, because there are no fencing suppliers where I live. So I have no idea what kind of grip I like...I just use whatever my club has. So really...I have no idea what kind of grip to buy, and I can't try them all out before buying one from the internet. Any suggestions?

MyraTrue · 10-07-2003, 09:53 PM

In my club, whenever there's an order about to go out, there's a session where everyone wants to "try" Everyone else's weapon. Its rather funny, but I'm the main Visconti owner, we have someone with a German, and so on. Look around the clup for different grips. Even if they're on a personal weapon, people usually let you at least hold them to get a feel for the grip.

This might help you decide what you want... as long as the ENTIRE club doesn't fence with one grip.

Wish I had better advice, but shopping around the club might be your best shot. Then, order which one you liked best. The one thing to be said about grips is that they're fairly low price (~$5-$12) and if you REALLY hate the grip you get, buy a new one, or put a different one onto your epee.

Hope it works out for you! Good luck.
M

JAySE SUiCiDE · 10-14-2003, 03:55 PM

this is only slightly off topic.

i recently bought 3 K3 grips from PBT fencing at the NAC event in overland park..and they're not insulated..i was hoping to use these for foil. is there a rule saying all foil grips must be insulated?

thanks for the help.

~JAySE

edit: the rules say the grips DO need to be insulated at "the rear extremity"..does anybody understand how much area this covers?

(m.13 in the revision C edition of the rulebook)

neevel · 10-14-2003, 06:02 PM

Just the end of the extension that runs back along the wrist needs to be insulated-- the last 4 cm or so ought to be sufficient. Keep in mind that if you tend to sweat a lot, you may wish to insulate the entire grip to prevent a sweat-bridge between your weapon and your lame (with modern scoring machines, that would cause your weapon to act like valid target). You can tape it, paint it, or use one of the various d-i-y rubber coating products available at hardware stores.

-Dave

MyraTrue · 10-14-2003, 07:28 PM

Isn't the reason for the insulation that if their foil were to hit your uninsulated grip, it would register as valid in foil? (someone pointed out that I was using a foil grip on an epee once, which was the first I'd realized there was a difference).

Myra

JAySE SUiCiDE · 10-14-2003, 11:05 PM

neevel-thanks for the advice..i'll ask my coach bout taping it up (yes..hes got me in a position where i cant tape up my grip without asking his permission first, though ive done it many times before..

) and long story short, i only sweat on my chest and back, and little sweat at that..needless to say, i get dehydration headaches all the time when im fencing, but i also doubt there'll be a sweat bridge made, between anything..so taping up the last bit that goes to my wrist and past should be fine?

and MyraTrue..im not sure, the reason is either that the grip against your lame would ground out your lame, or that your grip would become valid target..im not sure. but then if your grip became valid target, wouldnt your bell and blade become valid target aswell..?

though thats more of a question for anyone, i doubt you know, seeing as you fence epee..

just thought id share this..a one of a kind experience..i was fencing epee, and we both advanced foward at the same times, and our tips hit together, depressing my opponents..needless to say, i bet the director was a bit confused as to what she should do..

~Jes

neevel · 10-15-2003, 02:56 PM

The reason for the insulation is to prevent an electrical connection between the foil and the lame if the end of the foil grip were to be brought into contact (either intentionally or unintentionally) with the lame. In older scoring machines, doing so would ground the lame (since the weapon was ground) and prevent an opponent's touches from registering on you. What modern boxes do in that case is cause the weapon to become valid target along with the lame.

The yellow lights on scoring machines (not all "club" models have them) are there as an advisory that an A-C short is occuring. If you ever see the yellow light on your side come on, that means that your opponent can register a valid touch on your weapon, and you should either change gloves (if it's a sweat issue), or else look for a fault in the body cord, reel, or floor cord.

-Dave

JAySE SUiCiDE · 10-15-2003, 10:53 PM

cheers, neevel!

this'll be the last of it..does anyone know the penalty if your foil grips aren't insulated? thanks all.

~Jes

DHCJr · 10-15-2003, 11:26 PM

Yes, you can get touches against you from your opponent hitting your bell guard. That is if it is a box, that is no older than 1984 and it adhered to the rules at that time.

Seriously, your only hurting yourself if you have an uninsulated handle in Foil, so why should you be penalized. There are a number of rules in Foil, that are in the rule book that only hurt the fencer. Besides the handle, there is the 1mm rule (M-11), the 15cm tape rule (M-13). If you were stupid enough to have no tape on your blade, I would pass it, but I wouldn't want to use it. The 500 gram rule (M-6). Who would want a heavy weapon?

downunder · 10-15-2003, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JAySE SUiCiDE
just thought id share this..a one of a kind experience..i was fencing epee, and we both advanced foward at the same times, and our tips hit together, depressing my opponents..needless to say, i bet the director was a bit confused as to what she should do..

~Jes

happens semi-regularly.... any decent referee (and anyone with common sense :P) should know that no hit is allowed.

Quote:

Originally posted by JAySE SUiCiDE
this'll be the last of it..does anyone know the penalty if your foil grips aren't insulated? thanks all.

Group 1 Yellow Card: Equipment not conforming

At any senior comps it wouldn't make it past weapons check, hehe

DHCJr · 10-15-2003, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by downunder
Group 1 Yellow Card: Equipment not conforming

At any senior comps it wouldn't make it past weapons check, hehe

In the US and international tournaments, it would get through control. The theory is, were not there to hold their hands, we are making sure they are not getting unfair advantage over their opponent. If it gives unfair advantage to their opponent, that is their problem.

The policy for Armorers is we are checking for your opponent, even the mask test. We don't want someone going home saying he killed or injured someone.

When was the last time someone checked the travel on your foil. That is in the rule book and would be a non-conforming weapon, but like the insulating the blade and handle it only hurts the fencer using it. So why should an Armorer fail them.

downunder · 10-16-2003, 02:03 AM

i think you'll find for the sydney 2000 olympics, the armourers enforced the requirement that the rear extremity of the guard must be insulated.

The only other world cup that australia hosts is ME/WE (and i do weapons control at that), so i can't say i've had any recent experiance with it.

If the rear extremity of the guard is not insulated however, it presents an area of the fencer's body that will not light off target if hit by an opponent. This is the same reason why i have removed the insulation from my epee grips.

It should be enforced at world cup level....

Quote:

The policy for Armorers is we are checking for your opponent, even the mask test. We don't want someone going home saying he killed or injured someone

m.37. The forms of checking laid down by these rules are only intended to help organisers who must apply the rules and fencers who must always respect these rules.

DHCJr · 10-16-2003, 01:08 PM

Unless Ted Li (the Head Armorer at the Olympics) change how he does things just for the Olympics, he wouldn't have worried about the handle being taped. I have worked with him for over a half-dozen Internationals and I don't know how many others. He even asked me to work that Olympics, but I couldn't get off of work.

There has been only one time, that we required tape on the handle and that was just for one team at one tournament and that was only after they insisted we apply all the rules. We also checked the travel on their Foils and failed 4 weapons for that. They had no weapons or body cords pass the original control.

If you were my opponent, I would rather you didn't have tape on your weapon for the same reason you gave. If I hit your weapon during an attack, I wouldn't want it to be an off-target.

On M-37. I agree (that was one I have forgotten about), but I would also use the next line. Not taping your handle hurts you and it is your responsibility.

On Epee, the tape on the handle is a different matter, especially if is where your fingers and thumb is. If I wanted to raise the probability of getting a touch in Epee, I would have tape on my handle, after I had modified the handle.

I messed up in my last post. I didn't put in a question mark. Why not require the testing of travel and weight at a competition? Do you have an answer to that?