Opinions On Zivkovic Grips?

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

i've been fencing foil for the past 10 months, and epee for about the past month, both with visconti grips. I've taped all of my grips up quite a bit, but still have a problem of the weapon falling out of my hand or not being totally under control during intense fencing. I was at a competition recently and saw a Zivkovic grip, and figured that when I went to NACs in overland park i would try to look at some. Do you think the problem I'm having with my grips is because of the grip kind, or the grip size? and has anyone had any experience with Zivkovic grips, either positive or negitive? I'm looking at the B, Z, G, and GII versions of Zivkovic grips.

thanks everyone,
~Jes

[canthidefromme]

I fenced with a borrowed zivkovik once. Can't remember the size, but it was light blue, don't know if that helps or not. My point was all over the place, probably just because I wasn't used to the grip. The main problem is that my bottom three fingers started cramping after two or three bouts.

[cowpaste]

I tried the grip once and really liked it. I just guess it really depends on the size of your hand and how much you like the grip.

[Parker]

The first time I picked up a Ziv grip it felt great, extremely comfortable. I bought 2 complete epees from him on the spot. Then I went to actually fence with one, and I thought I was going to break my hand. Yes, there are some people who love them, but I think you will find that you'll have even less to "hang on to" than with your regular visconti grip.

Have you tried shortening your regular grip? I mean sawing or filing it off, so that your thumb is closer to the bell? Shortening it, say, a quarter inch will radically change the balance & mechanics of your epee. If you haven't done this, it's almost certainly going to make it easier for you to control your weapon in a bout.

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

my thumb is already like 1-2mm away from the padding, so i cant cut it much more..

and what type of ziv. were you using? i've narrowed it down to 4 that i'm looking at..

thanks for the help everyone.
~Jes

[oiuyt]

Zivkovics, like any other grip (only more so), are person dependent. Some people love them, some hate them and it really comes down to your personal preference, something which we here on the board certainly can't tell you.

Incidently, tape on an electric epee's pistol grip is illegal.

m.4 (3) All types of hilts are allowed providing that they conform to the regulations which have been framed with a view to placing the various types of weapons on the same footing. However, at epee, orthopaedic grips, whether metal or not, may not be covered with leather or any material which could hide wires or switches.

For what it's worth, one of my foils has a Ziv. grip (don't remember which type off hand). I STRONGLY prefer viscontis and therefore only use that weapon in cases of direst need.

-B :)

[MyraTrue]

Hmm.. I know I've used the Z and B grips, and I HATED them both. Honestly, I've found a few fencers who really like them, but I'm not a big fan. I feel like I can't wrap my fingers like I should be able to, like I'm holding something that's going to be beaten from my hand. They make my hand cramp, and my fingers protest when I use them. (I'd even fence with a Belgian grip before I'd fence Ziv!)

The few people I know who like the Ziv's have been large handed guys. I fit an 8 in glove, and have long fingers. I'll always like a German Visconti best, but the Italian Visconti's are pretty good with me too...

I guess like its been said, if you like the Ziv's, by all means, fence with them!!

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

went to NACs and asked my coach bout the Ziv grips..he siad they didnt provide too much control, so i looked at the PBT Russian (K1, K2, K3) grips..they had the good part of the Zivs, the thick part going down to your wrist, which i needed for flicks..and it provided more control than the Zivs looked like they would give..

I used to use Italian Visconti's aswell, xept for the fact that they were too small so i taped them, but then after that they kept falling out of my hand..and i just put them on yesterday, so i havnt had a chance to fence with them yet, but so far the only downside is that one part keeps digging into the first knuckle on my thumb, so i might file that down.

~Jes

[remise]

I fence with the "Z" grip. I find that when I fence with the one particular weapon with the "Z". my actions are faster and my point control is right on. The secret is to use your thumb and forefinger almost exclusively with this kind of grip. If you clamp down or 'wrench' down like you would with a visconti, (using the last three fingers of your hand) it causes the tip to flail up and wide.

This takes a bit of practice, but I wouldn't trade my grip for anything now. I find myself using a Belgian normally, but if I'm across from a particularly tough opponent, I'll reach for the blade with the "Z" grip.

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

:/ i've already bought PBT K3 grips for my foils..and im not sure if this has to do with the grips, or my style of fencing in general..

ever since i got the grips, ive been having pain from the root of my pointer finger down to my wrist, whenever i try to grab things (untie shoes, close a bookbag, etc) and hurts especially while i'm fencing..a friend told me this was because i'm grippping it too hard with my pointer finger. could this be? thanks for the help..

~Jes

[remise]

Yes, you're gripping too hard. With the "Z" type grips, you can't clench down. It sounds like you had the right idea about control with the thumb and forefinger, but if you clamp down with these two digits, you'll suffer the same type of cramping.

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

alright..

thanks for all of your help, everybody.
and i'll try to ease up on the grip.

~Jes

[NJP3]

yea give the visconti one more try with a lighter hand, the blade might be getting knoked out b/c ur gripping so hard that your hand gets cramped up and you actually cant hold on to it as well as if you just had a moderate squeeze on it. If you can master it you will find a dramatic improvement in your point control and bladework.(i know cuz i used to do the same thing) I bought a GII once the ziv guy told me it was the closest to viscontis, i liked the feel of it but when i fenced I missed my small visconti, so i switched back, but this might be b/c i was so used to it. anyway... Small visconti all the way, ill never change!

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

i think the problem was, i was getting so little control with the 2 smallest fingers that i was trying to make it up by gripping really hard with the pointer finger..i just taped up the part of the grip where my pinky goes, and the pain has seemed to go away..well, atleast when i fence..its still there when tying my shoes, etc..

guess im gonna have to start using velcro to get rid of the pain..

thanks for the help though.

~Jes

[Nev]

I've fenced for 3 years, and started out with a french grip

I made a point of not using a pistol for over a year for fear of learning bad habits from it. A friend of mine started the same time as me and 10 months later bought his first foil and it was pistol, he has 7 foils now and all have diff grips, none of which satisfy him, all of which give him pain and cramp with prolonged use.

I have recently gone back to french grips, having done a stint with crosse and gardere types, mainly because they are ironicly a better fit than any anatomical grip

In my opinion its not the grip that matters initaially, but the method used to hold it; I have found that with a french grip you can exert great forces with the lightest touch, and I'm sure that it's not just something you can do with the french alone,; it comes down to that old saying by the ancient greek dude about giving him a stick and a solid place to stand and he'll move the world...

so 2 things: 1) you have to learn a light touch, which comes only with experience and self confidence, its death to any technique if you clamp up on your grip 2) it is advisable to learn to fence with a french grip, you may need to cut it down to size, but otherwise it teaches control and gives better leverage necessitating less force

this is all just my opinion, and what is one man's drink is famously another man's poision so I don't intend to force it down anyone's throught, comments are welcome

Nev

[zeissg]

I have to say that the Ziv B grip made a huge positive difference for me. They seemed to be a large part in resolving some serious tendonitis problems that I was having. Before, I was having to ice my elbow for an hour each night after fencing - and pop a few Vitamin I's (ibuprofens for the uninitated).

The pain slowly subsided after I started using the grips. It's almost completely gone now (to be fair, I also started with some weights a couple of weeks ago). They have seemed to make a difference to me.

As to point control, I think that it is primarily a function of how one holds the weapon... regardless of grip. I know that my point is better if I primarily use the thumb and forefinger... but of course I regularly wind up whole-handed. In that case, at least I'm not in agony with the Z grips.

Gary

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

man, i forgot this thread even existed!

well, I've solved my problem. I too had tendonitis, went to the doc, he gave me some pills to pop for a while, its all better now. I decided on the PBT K3 'cause when I flick I need something for my middle finger to really bear down on and keep it in place, and I didn't see that in any of the Ziv. grips. (honestly, right now i just forget if any had that feature, but I know that along with others were important for me)

It might also have to do with tecnique, ie. how tight im holding the foil. I've tried to use my fingertips more to control the foil as opposed to gripping with the whole hand, but I recently dislocated my kneecap, so I won't be trying that one while moving any time soon..

but thanks for the help, everyone. greatly appreciated!
~Jes

[aikijohn]

I fence with the "Z" grip. I find that when I fence with the one particular weapon with the "Z". my actions are faster and my point control is right on. The secret is to use your thumb and forefinger almost exclusively with this kind of grip. If you clamp down or 'wrench' down like you would with a visconti, (using the last three fingers of your hand) it causes the tip to flail up and wide.

This takes a bit of practice, but I wouldn't trade my grip for anything now. I find myself using a Belgian normally, but if I'm across from a particularly tough opponent, I'll reach for the blade with the "Z" grip.

... I second the quote above... it's been my exact experience. I was "brought up" using a French grip and missed the point control when I started using pistol grips. The Ziv "Z" grip is now my preferred grip and I must say, I've tried pretty much all types of pistol grips and even a gardere for a while...

[tiger fencer]

I used to use German grips, and liked them but they were really too thin or small for my hands. Started looking and found the Zikoviic grips, and really liked them. I mostly use my index and thumb for most actions, and dont' clench the grip with my other fingers. (Thought this was what everyone did, but maybe not). I use the K1 grip, and also like the Z grip as well. JS I think the B has a middle finger prong or maybe its the G grips.

Remise, why don't you switch all your weapons over if you use the Zik grip for the tough opponents? Just curious.

I fence with the "Z" grip. I find that when I fence with the one particular weapon with the "Z". my actions are faster and my point control is right on. The secret is to use your thumb and forefinger almost exclusively with this kind of grip. If you clamp down or 'wrench' down like you would with a visconti, (using the last three fingers of your hand) it causes the tip to flail up and wide.

This takes a bit of practice, but I wouldn't trade my grip for anything now. I find myself using a Belgian normally, but if I'm across from a particularly tough opponent, I'll reach for the blade with the "Z" grip.

[geezer]

I use practically everything. I make my own French grips. Old, broken plastic cores, built back into huge epoxy lumps that I carve into the exact fit I like to have, then I wrap them with leather and put the aluminum rings back on...they are perfect...for me. I modify almost every grip I use. I think the designers of these huge, misplaced 'thumb horns' are stupid...but that's another story.

I now use a Zivkovic K II and I'm seriously puzzled. I use it on a foil. The fit, the control is PERFECTION. Thumb and forefinger...I never knew it could be so good. I tried it on an epee and it was a demented monster! Awefull! Wrong size or something, very wierd. The B is large enough, but I hate finger grooves, so I use a seriously cut down Belgium that just floats in my hand and is all finger touch. So, who cares!! Z's are OK by me. A narrow profile and good thumb and forefinger placement, I can tuck the 'bottom three' in front of the butt with great control.

Have a nice bout.

non illigitimi carborundum