Classifications

[Mo]

We had meet today in our division.
There were ten fencers in cadet with the following classifications.
Cadet
1. A
2. B
3. U
3. C
5. U
6. U
7. U
8. U
9. U
10. U
There are not enough fencers to get a rating right? Would the third place person get anything?
What about Junior?
1. A
2. B
3. A
3. B
5. U
6. C
7. C
8. U
9. U
10. U
No classifications awarded here either?
I do not understand!

[whtouche]

There must be at least 15 people in the tournament of appropriate strength to award any letter greater than an E.
So...no, no ratings would be awarded at these tournaments.

[westcoastsabre]

Whats your point? No one did that exceptionally, in cadet, The U just beat a bunch of U's. And in junior, so what if a U beat 2 c's they all placed in the same tableau. Again, not all that exceptional.

[Mo]

Originally posted by westcoastsabre
Whats your point? No one did that exceptionally, in cadet, The U just beat a bunch of U's. And in junior, so what if a U beat 2 c's they all placed in the same tableau. Again, not all that exceptional.

I did not even mean to imply that it was "exceptional" a couple of the kids have been working really hard to get a rating. I was hoping the strength factor would have somehow helped the 3 place people to get an E or something.

What a strange response to my question.....

[westcoastsabre]

you know, its amazing what happens when you try to do things at 1 AM, anyways... My point was simply that #3 in the cadet didn't really beat anyone but a bunch of U's. A bronze is always good, but its not always deserving of a classification. However, she did beat 6 other U's... So the real solution here is to somehow cause Mr (or Mrs.) A, B, and C to suddenly have car problems that would prevent them from coming to the tournament and then change the tournament to an open while keeping the same fencers. Then he (or she) will get their precious E.

[MyraTrue]

There is nothing wrong with feeling as if there should have been a way to get some of these kids a "precious E". I myself am unrated, and there is something about ending up fencing a frekin' great load of A, B, and C fencers that makes you hope that maybe after all that, one could have an E. A rating is something to show for how hard you work, like it or not. When you work that damn hard, and have spent that much time, sweat, blood and energy, and get...

NOTHING... tada... it makes one wonder.

Mo- I can follow a straight X# of fencers, #1 gets... blah blah, blah, but once you throw in people already holding a rating, I'm not sure any longer. I wish there had been a way to award a rating, specially when some of those kids worked so hard for it.

Myra

[DHCJr]

Also for the cadet competiton, there is the new rule that any age restricted competition (U-17 or yonger) must be at least a C-1, which requires 15 fencers, with at least 2 C's, 2 D's and 2 E's or higher and at least 2 C's and 2 D's or higher must make it into the round of 8.

You might check the Atheletes Handbook for the classification chart to see what is required to earn a classification.

[Cerian]

I'd rather work to improve my fencing than to improve my rating...

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by Cerian
I'd rather work to improve my fencing than to improve my rating...

In theory they do go hand in hand...

[whtouche]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
In theory they do go hand in hand...

Untrue.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by whtouche
Untrue.

An explanation if you please? As I become a better fencer my rating improves as I win more tourneys. If I fence poorly my rating stays the same, and will eventually fall to reflect the differance in skill with my fellow fencers. I do not see how you could become "better" without bettering your game and fencing skill. I supose if you were radically altering your style to correct bad habits or problems then your tourney game may drop until you adapt to the new techniques, but this would only be a minor dip in performce for a couple of tourneys after which your improved set of skills would result in better seatings and eventually an increased rating as you progress. I seem to be missing what you mean.

[DJ Apostrophe]

in THEORY they do go hand in hand.

However, in PRACTICE, this may not be true, which is where I think whtouche was trying to go.


Contrary to the opinion of some of the members of this board, flukey ratings do exist... and even if you do not become a better fencer, there can be a quirky situation where you receive a better rating than you really deserve.

Conversly, if you are in a small division, you can improve drastically and not get a better rating... say you fence sabre and your division rarely breaks 12 people, and there are a couple A's who always fence (and presumably win the tournament). Unless you manage to knock off the A fencers, you will not receive a rating, and even if you do win the tourney, you will only get an E. (which, imho, vastly underestimates your fencing ability if you won a tourney with two As)

-w

[lochinvar]

Are we going to have yet another discussion of the classification system?

I'm sure Edew would step in to comment eventually, but let me precede him: The classifications are not "Awards of Merit". They are only tools to help with seeding competitions.

Classifications only have a rough correlation to one's ability as a fencer, insofar as they indicate the best competition day you've had in the last three years. They indicate your high-water mark.

As such, they are subject to "fluky-ness", to coin a phrase. We all know it, we all live with it. Get over it. It's not a perfect system, but it's the one we have. Unless/until the USFA comes up with a different/better one, that's how the cookie crumbles.

[oiuyt]

Mo- In the competitions that you listed the winner of the junior competition would earn an E. Doesn't help much given that s/he already has an A, but so it goes. For anything more get more people to compete.

-B :)

[broncofencer]

Here is an intresting question I have yet to find a good answer for. Why is that a B2 tournament gives ratings thru 12th B-E and an A2 tournament ranks thru 10 A-D no E's? This seems a little backwards to me since the A2 tournament is the supposed stronger field.

[edew]

it would help answer your question if you look at the recently changed (since last season) classification chart.

A Group B2 event awards letters down to 12th place with E's for 9-12th. A Group A2 event awards letters down to 12th place with E's for 11th and 12th place finishers. 9th and 10th place finishers get Ds.

Thus whatever inconsistencies that were shown previously have been corrected.

[DHCJr]

The Orange Coast Division had that question last year. This is what came from Carla Mae at the USFA Office. If you check the 1st meet from last year at OCFencing.org you will see the Epee competition is A2/B2. Classifications were awarded for the highest from either of these two strength competitions.

This has been the case, but it has been confusing. So what they did this year to combine the classifications that would be affected by something like this.

And as Eric said, the new Classification chart is much easier to understand.

[sabreman]

They should give out JO patches like they did in the old days. Need to give the kids something to shoot for that can't make the finals.

[canthidefromme]

Originally posted by sabreman
They should give out JO patches like they did in the old days. Need to give the kids something to shoot for that can't make the finals.

Who needs patches when you have lame stamps?

[edew]

Ah, the armorer's test stamp. Now that was the "badge" to be proud of. Some people would not use their lames except for competition and would have the whole lower back of their lames stamped like the passport of a cheap hooker with unlimited mileage on Pan-Am.