[CFML] Cohen's By the Sword

[Stephen Hand]

Hello all,

This book is a bit of a sore point, particularly with Historical Fencers.
It's rife with really basic historical errors. Check out my review at Amazon
(actually I wrote two reviews, the first was very harsh and just listed a
few of the worse errors in the first couple of chapters. The second review
was less harsh because I'd read the whole book and enjoyed the Classical and
modern fencing sections). If you're just interested in Classical fencing
then you might like the book. If you're at all knowledgable about historical
fencing, you'll be falling off your chair and tearing your hair out. I think
the author did his research by reading the great big boys book of popular
fencing myths.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...3979/sr%3D2-1/
ref%3Dsr%5F2%5F1/002-8567727-7477629

Stephen Hand
Stoccata School of Defence
http://www.stoccata.org
Chivalry Bookshelf
http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com
Australian Historical Swordplay Federation
http://www.aushistswordplayfed.org/


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3ex...sNAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Sean Hayes]

The classical sections seem to be pretty good, but Stephen is right
about the historical stuff: it's rife with errors and misconceptions
that have been handed down for over a century - despite the existence
of good modern scholarship to dispute the rather silly idea that the
parry wasn't invented until the rapier era, etc, etc. It's certainly
good overall publicity for the classical and historical movements, but
it still leaves us with lots of error-correction to do.

Sean Hayes
Maestro d'armi
Northwest Academy of Arms
<http://www.efn.org/~hayes/>

----------




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3ex...sNAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Patrick Shannon]

--- In classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com, Sean Hayes <hayes@e...>
wrote:
> The classical sections seem to be pretty good, but Stephen is right
> about the historical stuff: it's rife with errors and
misconceptions
> that have been handed down for over a century - despite the
existence
> of good modern scholarship to dispute the rather silly idea that
the
> parry wasn't invented until the rapier era, etc, etc. It's
certainly
> good overall publicity for the classical and historical movements,
but
> it still leaves us with lots of error-correction to do.
>


Just my luck, just started with this book since I hadn't heard
anything about it and was looking to learn more about the past.
(Fortunately, I'm barely into the book)

Is there any good (and closely accurate) book suggestions on the
history of the sword, such as historical and classical, etc? In other
words, what is a better alternative to this book?

--
Patrick Shannon
Instructor, Baited Blade Classical Fencing
http://www.baitedblade.com


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3ex...sNAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Michael E. Ludwig]

Patrick wrote:

> Just my luck, just started with this book since I hadn't heard
> anything about it and was looking to learn more about the past.
> (Fortunately, I'm barely into the book)
>
> Is there any good (and closely accurate) book suggestions on the
> history of the sword, such as historical and classical, etc? In other
> words, what is a better alternative to this book?

J. C. Amberger: The Secret History of the Sword

Sincerely,

Michael E. Ludwig
MELudwig@suscom.net
717.244.4630



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3ex...sNAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Ken Mondschein]

Amberger's "Secret History of the Sword" is pretty good...

> --- In classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com, Sean Hayes <hayes@e...>
> wrote:
>> The classical sections seem to be pretty good, but Stephen is right
>> about the historical stuff: it's rife with errors and
> misconceptions
>> that have been handed down for over a century - despite the
> existence
>> of good modern scholarship to dispute the rather silly idea that
> the
>> parry wasn't invented until the rapier era, etc, etc. It's
> certainly
>> good overall publicity for the classical and historical movements,
> but
>> it still leaves us with lots of error-correction to do.
>>
>
>
> Just my luck, just started with this book since I hadn't heard
> anything about it and was looking to learn more about the past.
> (Fortunately, I'm barely into the book)
>
> Is there any good (and closely accurate) book suggestions on the
> history of the sword, such as historical and classical, etc? In other
> words, what is a better alternative to this book?
>
> --
> Patrick Shannon
> Instructor, Baited Blade Classical Fencing
> http://www.baitedblade.com
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying
> rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


--
Ken Mondschein
www.corporatemofo.com



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3ex...sNAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Sean Hayes]

> Is there any good (and closely accurate) book suggestions on the
> history of the sword, such as historical and classical, etc? In other
> words, what is a better alternative to this book?

Chris's book is excellent and highly recommended (buy two - I did),
although it's not the overall history of swords and swordsmanship that
you're looking for. Egerton Castle's Schools and Masters of Fence has
been reprinted by Dover, and you can find it on Amazon as "Schools and
Masters of Fencing". It also has problems (Cohen used it as a source),
but it's a good place to start. Read that along with William Gaugler's
"History of Fencing", which traces the roots of modern European
swordplay (eg classical swordplay). Sydney Anglo's "Martial Arts of
Renaissance Europe" is another worthy book.

Finally, check out Chivalry Bookshelf at
http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/. They have a number of current and
forthcoming titles of great interest. You might look at their "Arte
Gladitoria: 15th Century Swordsmanship of Master Filippo Vadi", which
is an excellent and close look at a single text. The introductory
material is fascinating and first-rate, and puts the system in the
context of it's time.


Sean Hayes
Maestro d'armi
Northwest Academy of Arms
<http://www.efn.org/~hayes/>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3ex...sNAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Ken Mondschein]

I had some issues with Anglo's MARE...

http://www.ahfi.org/news/v2n1/newsletter6.htm

>> Is there any good (and closely accurate) book suggestions on the
>> history of the sword, such as historical and classical, etc? In other
>> words, what is a better alternative to this book?
>
> Chris's book is excellent and highly recommended (buy two - I did),
> although it's not the overall history of swords and swordsmanship that
> you're looking for. Egerton Castle's Schools and Masters of Fence has
> been reprinted by Dover, and you can find it on Amazon as "Schools and
> Masters of Fencing". It also has problems (Cohen used it as a source),
> but it's a good place to start. Read that along with William Gaugler's
> "History of Fencing", which traces the roots of modern European
> swordplay (eg classical swordplay). Sydney Anglo's "Martial Arts of
> Renaissance Europe" is another worthy book.
>
> Finally, check out Chivalry Bookshelf at
> http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/. They have a number of current and
> forthcoming titles of great interest. You might look at their "Arte
> Gladitoria: 15th Century Swordsmanship of Master Filippo Vadi", which
> is an excellent and close look at a single text. The introductory
> material is fascinating and first-rate, and puts the system in the
> context of it's time.
>
>
> Sean Hayes
> Maestro d'armi
> Northwest Academy of Arms
> <http://www.efn.org/~hayes/>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying
> rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


--
Ken Mondschein
www.corporatemofo.com



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3ex...sNAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Warren and Jackie Cabral]

After sifting through all the e-mails going back and forth, I have come to the conclusion that none of us will really find a source that fully satisfies our search for the "complete" tome on either historical or classical fencing (or both!) Perhaps we should simply enjoy the efforts put forth by the Cohens, Castles, Anglos, and Gauglers of the world, imperfect, in our personal opinions,as they may well be. All of these sources contain lots of information worthy of note for any swordsman/swordswoman to learn from.
Are these works error free? Certainly not! Can we nit-pick and argue about the fine, arcane points which separate fact from fiction? Sure we can, but I doubt if any one of us, outside of our own opinions, will ever fully agree, here in the 21st century on the fullness of something taught in the 15th, 16th, or even 17th centuries. The 19th and 20th maybe, but even in those sources, you will find different interpretations on subjects to do with both classical and historical fencing. Being of Portuguese- descent, I often hear the expression "when two Portuguese argue, there are three opinions!" (Perhaps some of you have heard something similar.) So, I for one, will simply applaud the efforts of those authors who have taken the time and effort to further encourage interest in our art, yes, even when their works just might contain some error here or there. Enjoy the book, everyone...life is too short, and as my father-in-law used to say, "Don't take life too seriously...no one
leaves here alive!"

Regards to All,
Warren Cabral

Ken Mondschein <editor@corporatemofo.com> wrote:

I had some issues with Anglo's MARE...

http://www.ahfi.org/news/v2n1/newsletter6.htm

>> Is there any good (and closely accurate) book suggestions on the
>> history of the sword, such as historical and classical, etc? In other
>> words, what is a better alternative to this book?
>
> Chris's book is excellent and highly recommended (buy two - I did),
> although it's not the overall history of swords and swordsmanship that
> you're looking for. Egerton Castle's Schools and Masters of Fence has
> been reprinted by Dover, and you can find it on Amazon as "Schools and
> Masters of Fencing". It also has problems (Cohen used it as a source),
> but it's a good place to start. Read that along with William Gaugler's
> "History of Fencing", which traces the roots of modern European
> swordplay (eg classical swordplay). Sydney Anglo's "Martial Arts of
> Renaissance Europe" is another worthy book.
>
> Finally, check out Chivalry Bookshelf at
> http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/. They have a number of current and
> forthcoming titles of great interest. You might look at their "Arte
> Gladitoria: 15th Century Swordsmanship of Master Filippo Vadi", which
> is an excellent and close look at a single text. The introductory
> material is fascinating and first-rate, and puts the system in the
> context of it's time.
>
>
> Sean Hayes
> Maestro d'armi
> Northwest Academy of Arms
> <http://www.efn.org/~hayes/>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying
> rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


--
Ken Mondschein
www.corporatemofo.com



Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3ex...sNAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Sean Hayes]

On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 08:19 AM, Ken Mondschein wrote:

>
> I had some issues with Anglo's MARE...

But presumably none with his stallion?

Sorry. Couldn't resist. Anyway, you raise valid concerns in your
review, including some I hadn't considered. It's nice to see them
discussed, but I still recommend Anglo as a valuable book. As with any
subject, the student is advised to read lots of books and articles, and
to compare and contrast.


Sean Hayes
Maestro d'armi
Northwest Academy of Arms
<http://www.efn.org/~hayes/>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3ex...sNAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Ken Mondschein]

>> I had some issues with Anglo's MARE...
>
> But presumably none with his stallion?

If Anglo could ride (or fence), there'd be less problems with the book...

> Sorry. Couldn't resist. Anyway, you raise valid concerns in your
> review, including some I hadn't considered. It's nice to see them
> discussed, but I still recommend Anglo as a valuable book. As with any
> subject, the student is advised to read lots of books and articles, and
> to compare and contrast.

It is a valuable book, and the first historigraphically sound work on
medieval and early modern fencing. (I'm not going to include Dr. Gaugler's
History because it really is a sketch of the development of the classical
form, and we all, of course, know the problems with Castle.) Too bad Dr.
Anglo wasn't educated in the traditions of fencing, as well as those of
history, since a lot of the issues with the book stem from his
misapprehensions thereof.

--Ken



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3ex...sNAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[ray and joan]

Dear all, for a recent history of the medieval sword,
try my 1992 dussertation, The Art of the Sword inthe
Late Middle Ages, Catholic University. Unfortunately
no one would publish it! Ray Smith
--- Ken Mondschein <editor@corporatemofo.com> wrote:
>
> Amberger's "Secret History of the Sword" is pretty
> good...
>
> > --- In classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com, Sean
> Hayes <hayes@e...>
> > wrote:
> >> The classical sections seem to be pretty good,
> but Stephen is right
> >> about the historical stuff: it's rife with errors
> and
> > misconceptions
> >> that have been handed down for over a century -
> despite the
> > existence
> >> of good modern scholarship to dispute the rather
> silly idea that
> > the
> >> parry wasn't invented until the rapier era, etc,
> etc. It's
> > certainly
> >> good overall publicity for the classical and
> historical movements,
> > but
> >> it still leaves us with lots of error-correction
> to do.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Just my luck, just started with this book since I
> hadn't heard
> > anything about it and was looking to learn more
> about the past.
> > (Fortunately, I'm barely into the book)
> >
> > Is there any good (and closely accurate) book
> suggestions on the
> > history of the sword, such as historical and
> classical, etc? In other
> > words, what is a better alternative to this book?
> >
> > --
> > Patrick Shannon
> > Instructor, Baited Blade Classical Fencing
> > http://www.baitedblade.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart
> Armoury, now carrying
> > rapier blunts and leather gorgets.
> http://www.woodenswords.com
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> --
> Ken Mondschein
> www.corporatemofo.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart
> Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather
> gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3ex...sNAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[hicksc@aol.com]

In a message dated 10/10/2003 10:46:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
smithnugent1@yahoo.com writes:

> Dear all, for a recent history of the medieval sword,
> try my 1992 dussertation, The Art of the Sword inthe
> Late Middle Ages, Catholic University. Unfortunately
> no one would publish it! Ray Smith

Hi Ray, nice to see you here.

Ray dissertation, the first on the subject in about 100 years in the US, is
avaiable through UMI.

Steve


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ArdFIC/hP....SFAA/VRUolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/